£8billion,,,,,,,,,,,,,, alternatively, lets continue with an ailing service. I'm sure if you took seriously ill you'd wish you'd paid a bit extra.
And if we want a 7 day NHS it'll cost more.
What sort of NHS do you want?
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£8billion,,,,,,,,,,,,,, alternatively, lets continue with an ailing service. I'm sure if you took seriously ill you'd wish you'd paid a bit extra.
And if we want a 7 day NHS it'll cost more.
What sort of NHS do you want?
PhilTheFragger
Provider of Entertainment for the Golfing Gods 🙄
Whilst I agree that it is a huge amount of money and the management structure needs a complete overhaul ( less managers , more frontline staff) the NHS faces certain challenges namely a growing population in terms of numbers and also a growing ageing population who will need a huge amount of resources to deal with.
A massive investment is needed in mental health, end of life care ( the fact that the Hospice system is funded by charitable donations is frankly a scandal) and training as a massive number of frontline staff will retire in the next 10 years. Nurses and Midwives don't grow on trees, you can't just magic them up, they each take 3 years to train , the NHS pays their £27000 course fees and you can only train as many new staff as you have qualified mentors,
Add to this the cost of drugs and new treatments and you can see where the money soon goes.
I've just spent 12 days in Stoke Mandeville and my daughter is a first year Midwifery student, if you are ill, you will thank the Lord that it exists, my treatment which was really diagnosis (MRI scans) bed rest, physiotherapy and pain relief would have cost in the region of £4000 + add in an operation and you can double that figure. The guy in the next bed was 81 and in the past 10 years has had both knees replaced, skin cancer treatment and was in for a hip replacement after a fall. That's a massive amount of money to spend on someone in their twilight years, but what is the alternative ? Euthanasia at 75? No of course not. But it illustrates the cost of an ageing population
8 billion extra is really a drop in the ocean
chrisd
Major Champion
A couple of weeks ago my twin brother was diagnosed with a fairly rare cancer. They picked it up, luckily, at stage one. Now I'm certainly one to criticise the NHS for things I've seen but, to be fair, since he was diagnosed the service, care and treatment has been second to none and the prognosis is for a full recovery. Had he had to pay for this treatment it's debatable whether he could afford it without selling everything to fund it, and if he couldn't afford it would he get the quality of care that he is getting now?
Del_Boy
Head Pro
One where the first answer is not chuck more money at it - let's carry out a full long term review to establish where money is used efficiently and see if that can be used elsewhere and where money is wasted.
Since inception around 10 times more money is spent on the NHS now then back then with the country's income increasing by around 5 times in that period
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Questioning the figure is rather meaningless unless you know what it is funding and know the cost of other government funded services for comparison. The CEO of the NHS reckons it needs another £8Bn over the next 5 years as it has been told to find $22Bn in savings to cover the £30Bn gap in funding required to maintain the current level of services. The government have promised to fund the NHS at £8bn a year extra by the end of the current parliament.
This £8Bn of additional funding shouldn't be that difficult to find since spending amounts of less than £5Bn don't really have any impact on the public purse (or so I learned during the election debate)
DCB
Well-known member
In 2009 I had the misfortune to need to use my BUPA cover that was part of my package at work. Great service, great diagnosis, using all the technical gizmos during the one visit and excellent care from the consultant I saw.
I had copies of the invoices sent to me during the various stages of my treatment and I can fully understand now why the BUPA hospital had all the facilities and equipment on hand. As it was an insurance job, the bills were huge.
Run forward to March 2014 and my accident which resulted in a blue light trip to A&E, 24hrs of tests etc before being forwarded to another hospital and their Neuroscience Dept. In the space of 36hrs I'd had an exhaustive series of tests and scans done to find out what the problem was, a diagnosis and a plan of attack were agreed and treatment started with a view to surgery later in the week. Surgery was an long process, 9hrs followed by ICU, HD and then back to a normal ward four days later. Follow that up with ten weeks rehab at a specialist hospital and then another four months outpatient rehab after that.
I'd take the NHS offering any day of the week. Treatment was great, staff were great, I couldn't fault it.
If we do go down an insurance route we will weaken the NHS provision and it will have a detrimental effect on the health and wellbeing of people in the long run. I'd probably not be here if I'd not received the treatment I had last March and I doubt I'd have received the same standard of treatment if it had been an insurance case.
Leave the NHS alone, by all means improve funding, improve efficiency and cut down on wastage, but leave it alone please.
I had copies of the invoices sent to me during the various stages of my treatment and I can fully understand now why the BUPA hospital had all the facilities and equipment on hand. As it was an insurance job, the bills were huge.
Run forward to March 2014 and my accident which resulted in a blue light trip to A&E, 24hrs of tests etc before being forwarded to another hospital and their Neuroscience Dept. In the space of 36hrs I'd had an exhaustive series of tests and scans done to find out what the problem was, a diagnosis and a plan of attack were agreed and treatment started with a view to surgery later in the week. Surgery was an long process, 9hrs followed by ICU, HD and then back to a normal ward four days later. Follow that up with ten weeks rehab at a specialist hospital and then another four months outpatient rehab after that.
I'd take the NHS offering any day of the week. Treatment was great, staff were great, I couldn't fault it.
If we do go down an insurance route we will weaken the NHS provision and it will have a detrimental effect on the health and wellbeing of people in the long run. I'd probably not be here if I'd not received the treatment I had last March and I doubt I'd have received the same standard of treatment if it had been an insurance case.
Leave the NHS alone, by all means improve funding, improve efficiency and cut down on wastage, but leave it alone please.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Splendid appreciative post that sir!
One thing that is undermining care is the internal market. A little example - in my wife's team they are encouraged to avoid having patients stay overnight and longer than they have to - OK.
But this means that if a patient cannot get home - or has nobody at home to look after them the first night they could be at home then they stay in hospital - OK - good patient care.
But my wife's team incurs a penalty charge of a few hundred pounds a night for every night the patient exceeds their stay - and that comes off the fixed budget the team has to pay other teams for treatments and consultations. And that is how her team ends up budget overspend - or restricting what they offer patients as the budget is depleted. Truth is I'm not sure the latter happens that much - but the way the internal market works it would if they were absolutely not allowed to exceed their budget - and as the NHS CEO has to find £22Bn of saving over the next 5 yrs I suspect budget overspend will not be looked upon other than dimly.
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SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
The bills would have also been huge for the NHS. Its not free, someone pays for it and it's not the Government, they don't have any money, they use ours.
palindromicbob
Tour Winner
This is one of the biggest jokes. What do you do to incentivise targets in a publicly funded system that's stretched? That's right. Fine it.
Areas that manage within their budget and maybe have a little left? Cut the budget so the next year when they could have done with the money they previously saved = overspend.
The systems in place actively encourage departments to overspend because they punish the areas that manage to save money by cutting them down rather than maintain them and encourage surplus so other services could be developed within that team!!!
Totally agree with a review.
With regard to your second point about the increased costs outstripping income. Once upon a time pretty much everyone who got cancer died. No one had heart surgery, or brain surgery. The list of new treatments since its inception is huge - thats where the majority of the cost increase has come from.
bluewolf
Money List Winner
And I genuinely don't mind that some of the money I've paid in has gone to help Davey.. Do you begrudge it?
Oh, and it doesn't matter whether it's the NHS or the abhorrent American system. It would still be "US" that would be paying for it. Just that in the USA it would be in the form of higher premiums at some point.. Nothing is free and I like the fact that we benefit from a Health System that is ranked in the Top 10 all over the World.
SugarPenguin
Challenge Tour Pro
problem is a lot of people want something for nothing.
The NHS is broken beyond repair in terms of its functionality, efficiency and budgeting.
However - no matter how crappy it can be, its still available for everybody so you cannot really fault it. I think we are lucky to have the NHS.
The NHS is broken beyond repair in terms of its functionality, efficiency and budgeting.
However - no matter how crappy it can be, its still available for everybody so you cannot really fault it. I think we are lucky to have the NHS.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
And the government are raising unachievable expectations in the public - which will just fuel a feeling of entitlement that so many have these days - and it is my feeling that feelings of entitlement are what is undermining such as our health service and education service. Many these days expect to have it all, and feel entitled. And that feeling of entitlement is severly damaging to our society in my view,
bluewolf
Money List Winner
One of the things that the highly rated French system has that may help alleviate stress areas within the NHS is the ability for a Pharmacy to write minor prescriptions. This would help remove some of the burden on A&E and Doctors surgeries.
SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
What in my post indicates I begrudge it! Please explain?
Did I suggest somewhere that the American system was somehow superior. If so please indicate where?
I cant remember suggesting that the NHS was not ranked in the top 10 over the World. Please refresh my memory if I did?
bluewolf
Money List Winner
You make a point about the money used being "ours", then bristle when someone asks you a simple question about that.
No you didn't, but the American system is the best example of an Industrialized Country that relies heavily on a for-profit insurance Industry to provide basic healthcare and therefore is rightfully used as an opposing option to our own healthcare system.
Why exactly are you being so touchy about some basic facts about the NHS being aired? Are opinions and facts not allowed on this thread. I am not in direct conversation with you and don't need to have a separate post every time I want to raise a separate point.
Stop attempting to make arguments and feel free to discuss your preferred option. I raised some points about the German system earlier. A system in which the individual and the Employer they work for make an equal contribution to the Care budget. A system which encourages (but not compels) higher earners to provide their own Private Healthcare. These Private Healthcare policies have almost doubled over the last 5 years, resulting in significant amounts of people opting back into the standard healthcare system. Just how much difference is their between our own funding of the NHS and the German system?
Edit, I've just checked some figures and the German system costs approx 11.3% of GDP. The UK system costs approx 7.8% of GDP. We may be getting a better deal than we thought..
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bluewolf
Money List Winner
A quick adjustment to the figures quote above. They should have read that the total spent on healthcare in the UK including Private is 9.4% of GDP, which is significantly lower than the 11.3% spent in Germany. Couple this with a system which is regularly voted one of the best in the World (above Germany, but often below France) and I don't think that we have as much to complain about as we think we do.
Ethan
Money List Winner
Billing is very different between a state run system and a private one. The state run system incurs costs at the marginal rate. If the ward is fully staffed but has room, then no additional staff costs are incurred. If the theatres have space, then minimal additional costs are incurred in adding one more operation.
In the private system, you pay a price for everything, whether or not that reflects the true cost to the provider. US hospitals are excellent at billing and will bill you for every aspirin or elastoplast, and they will do so at inflated rates. A routine appendicectomy in the US can cost $15,000 or more. The same procedure in the NHS would cost about £1,000. The hospital room in the US might be a bit nicer, but otherwise the experience will be very similar, and the outcomes the same.
About 10 years ago, I got a US doctor colleague to write me a prescription for amoxycillin for a sinus infection while I was over on an extended business trip. 5 days amoxycillin costs about £1 in the UK. The exact same generic meds cost me $99 in a pharmacy in Boston. It took the pharmacist less than 90 seconds to fill the prescription.
The US system is bloated with cost and people taking their cut of the pie. We should do everything we can to avoid going the same way.
SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
I do not advocate us using a USA type system (Think I have said that a few times now!) Germany has a mis of state and private . The private tops up the basic state cover and is provided by non-profit organisations.
SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
If you insist quoting my comments and taking them 'out of context' then expect a reaction. You can make whatever comments you like on the subject matter but make them in your own name rather than off my back, you do seem to be clever at putting words in my mouth.
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