Strikes by non-producing workers, IE doctors, nurses, council employees ETC.

[PJ87]

It’s a tough decision to make re whether to go out on strike or not, especially if you are a nurse. Nurses since the foundation of the NHS had an unwritten rule that they would not go on strike. Without involving politics. They feel that them and the NHS has been run down over the years. They feel worthless. They feel undervalued. They feel what have they got to lose By going on strike. This is just a couple of years after we were giving them a clap for all they did during COVID.
I don’t think it’s just about money but it is a large part of it.

Would love to hear the thoughts of Ethan on this.

Whilst I'm not as important as a nurse by any stretch this is a view I share when we call strikes

I left the rmt and joined tssa in 2009 as I work to provide the best service to our customers. Yes I don't want to be taken for a mug and will go out if absolutely last resort but the rmt since Bob crow left (underground side anyways) have been very much wanting to have a fight just to prove they aren't weak. I can't bring myself to be a part when our customers suffer.

Can't imagine the choices nurses make..their jobs are so vital

 

[AmandaJR]

Can't imagine doctors will see a huge raft of support if they continue to press for 35%, most other public sectors having settled or been forced to settle for 6-7%.
Once the junior doctors qualify they will never be poor. I'm related to a few. The problems in the NHS are largely down to inefficiency and lack of lower paid healthcare staff, because nobody in their right mind would do what they do for minimum wage + £1.

My friend's (senior nurse) daughter recently started working as an HCA. £11-12 an hour for what she does is criminal. I don't know how she does it. 18 years old and I'm amazed how she copes with what is thrown at her every day. Never mind a pretty awful shift pattern. She's close to quitting and going back to the factory job she had during the summer holidays. She would like to follow a path to nursing. That is possible, without a degree, as you train on the job BUT when qualified she'd be paid less than the same person who qualified with a degree. Madness.

I'm at the hospital volunteering this afternoon and imagine we'll have some patients turn up whose appointments have been cancelled.

Consultants striking? Little sympathy. Otherwise I'd say staff in the NHS are underpaid and deserve better.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

My friend's (senior nurse) daughter recently started working as an HCA. £11-12 an hour for what she does is criminal. I don't know how she does it. 18 years old and I'm amazed how she copes with what is thrown at her every day. Never mind a pretty awful shift pattern. She's close to quitting and going back to the factory job she had during the summer holidays. She would like to follow a path to nursing. That is possible, without a degree, as you train on the job BUT when qualified she'd be paid less than the same person who qualified with a degree. Madness.

I'm at the hospital volunteering this afternoon and imagine we'll have some patients turn up whose appointments have been cancelled.

Consultants striking? Little sympathy. Otherwise I'd say staff in the NHS are underpaid and deserve better.

I'm not sure that's correct. Once qualified she'd go onto the agenda for change band 5 pay scale and that is generic for staff nurses and wouldn't differentiate between a degree or not

 

[PJ87]

I'm not sure that's correct. Once qualified she'd go onto the agenda for change band 5 pay scale and that is generic for staff nurses and wouldn't differentiate between a degree or not

Good to see you posting, don't be a stranger

 

[TimShady]

My friend's (senior nurse) daughter recently started working as an HCA. £11-12 an hour for what she does is criminal. I don't know how she does it. 18 years old and I'm amazed how she copes with what is thrown at her every day. Never mind a pretty awful shift pattern. She's close to quitting and going back to the factory job she had during the summer holidays. She would like to follow a path to nursing. That is possible, without a degree, as you train on the job BUT when qualified she'd be paid less than the same person who qualified with a degree. Madness.

I'm at the hospital volunteering this afternoon and imagine we'll have some patients turn up whose appointments have been cancelled.

Consultants striking? Little sympathy. Otherwise I'd say staff in the NHS are underpaid and deserve better.

I’d be interested to know why you have little sympathy with consultants. Is it because they already earn well above the national average wage?

That in itself isn’t a good enough reason to erode working conditions and not to increase their pay inline with the cost of living.

Sure, they get paid well, but that shouldn’t mean a real time pay cut as they because more experienced and accept more and more responsibility.

 

[Reemul]

My wife is a deputy head, she has been a teacher 22 years. She doesn't strike but that doesn't mean she is happy. The issue is not pay really, it's the work load and hours. She works in a small school. 1 form entry so 200 pupils. She is Deputy Head, Senco Head, Head of Maths and Key Stage 1 leader as well as School direct co ordinator - Bringing in trainee teachers. There is just so few staff and so much work it has taken over her life. The positive thing is she really loves her job but she is nearing 50 now and I can see it is starting to take a toll on her. She earns around 50k a year the thing is I work in insurance I have team members who earn that working 9-5 Mon - Fri.

Anyhone who has family and friends working in teaching knows how damn hard it is the rest think it's 9-3. Septembers new trainess had a meeting on Friday last week. There are 6 of them. This lays out hours and expectations. 2 came back with I can't work past 3 and another I can't get in till 9am. Lol like the schools starts teaching at 8.45. In school hours are a minimum of 8.00 - 16.30 plus the rest. On average the trainees qualify and last 3 years before they quit due to work load and hours. The starting pay for a new teacher is £30k now so it's now really the pay it's the workload and I am unsre how you striek for that.

 

[KenL]

I’d be interested to know why you have little sympathy with consultants. Is it because they already earn well above the national average wage?

That in itself isn’t a good enough reason to erode working conditions and not to increase their pay inline with the cost of living.

Sure, they get paid well, but that shouldn’t mean a real time pay cut as they because more experienced and accept more and more responsibility.

Agreed. Plenty people with far less skill, responsibility and impact earning far more for far less.

 

[AmandaJR]

I’d be interested to know why you have little sympathy with consultants. Is it because they already earn well above the national average wage?

That in itself isn’t a good enough reason to erode working conditions and not to increase their pay inline with the cost of living.

Sure, they get paid well, but that shouldn’t mean a real time pay cut as they because more experienced and accept more and more responsibility.

I guess there's something in the fact they earn very well and usually retire early on a healthy pension. Agreed though that's not reason enough but I get the feeling the better they get the less they actually contribute to the NHS. Private work. Less hours in NHS hospitals.

 

[AmandaJR]

I'm not sure that's correct. Once qualified she'd go onto the agenda for change band 5 pay scale and that is generic for staff nurses and wouldn't differentiate between a degree or not

Hey you. Only going by what she's been told so could well be misinformation.

 

[PJ87]

My wife is a deputy head, she has been a teacher 22 years. She doesn't strike but that doesn't mean she is happy. The issue is not pay really, it's the work load and hours. She works in a small school. 1 form entry so 200 pupils. She is Deputy Head, Senco Head, Head of Maths and Key Stage 1 leader as well as School direct co ordinator - Bringing in trainee teachers. There is just so few staff and so much work it has taken over her life. The positive thing is she really loves her job but she is nearing 50 now and I can see it is starting to take a toll on her. She earns around 50k a year the thing is I work in insurance I have team members who earn that working 9-5 Mon - Fri.

Anyhone who has family and friends working in teaching knows how damn hard it is the rest think it's 9-3. Septembers new trainess had a meeting on Friday last week. There are 6 of them. This lays out hours and expectations. 2 came back with I can't work past 3 and another I can't get in till 9am. Lol like the schools starts teaching at 8.45. In school hours are a minimum of 8.00 - 16.30 plus the rest. On average the trainees qualify and last 3 years before they quit due to work load and hours. The starting pay for a new teacher is £30k now so it's now really the pay it's the workload and I am unsre how you striek for that.

Can vouch for this. My mum was a teacher for many years. Retired now. Remember being dropped at my nans 7am and picked up gone 6 (she only worked 20 mins away) going in every school "holiday" for revision classes etc

My wife has all the qualifications for teacher but stayed teaching assistant to keep her work out of home hours

They have offered her 3 times since she joined her new school in December to train her to teacher (only one year course for her) but until our girls are older she doesn't want to lose any time with them which I respect

 

[TimShady]

I guess there's something in the fact they earn very well and usually retire early on a healthy pension. Agreed though that's not reason enough but I get the feeling the better they get the less they actually contribute to the NHS. Private work. Less hours in NHS hospitals.

Sadly it’s true that far too many consultants commit more and more time to their private clinics and I personally believe there should be limits to what they can do in the private sector but when you see the decline in working conditions and pay, it’s no surprise that they give themselves a relatively easy life with some private work. But remember that a consultant’s easy is another person’s impossible task.

I think the impact of consultants taking private work is over estimated though.

 

[KenL]

I'm a teacher, very rewarding job but hard work and getting harder.
Very difficult recruiting people in my subject (maths).

 

[Fade and Die]

Can't imagine doctors will see a huge raft of support if they continue to press for 35%, most other public sectors having settled or been forced to settle for 6-7%.
Once the junior doctors qualify they will never be poor. I'm related to a few. The problems in the NHS are largely down to inefficiency and lack of lower paid healthcare staff, because nobody in their right mind would do what they do for minimum wage + £1.

Re the highlighted bit, my brother is the GMB shop steward at a London hospital, he tells me whenever the minimum wage goes up he gets a lot of angry Security staff and lower level workers telling him to get a better deal for them, often these staff do leave to pick up the mop.

 

[RichA]

Sadly it’s true that far too many consultants commit more and more time to their private clinics and I personally believe there should be limits to what they can do in the private sector but when you see the decline in working conditions and pay, it’s no surprise that they give themselves a relatively easy life with some private work. But remember that a consultant’s easy is another person’s impossible task.

I think the impact of consultants taking private work is over estimated though.

FiL and his current wife are retired consultants. She was career NHS. He was NHS and private.
Wealthy enough to walk away from his divorcing my MiL 25 years ago leaving her the £1M house and £50k per year. They admit to having more money than they could spend in 2 lifetimes.
BiL is a GP. Flits from practice to practice every couple of years and only works a 3 day week because it suits his lifestyle. His wife is qualified as a GP but doesn't practice, preferring to work a couple of shifts per week through an agency as an A&E doctor (£1000 per shift). So a combined income of over £150k per year as part-time public servants.
Plenty of contact with hospitals and doctors over the last few years with my dad and MiL having multiple health issues. The biggest beef with private consultants is the requirement to pay £300 for an initial 15 minute consultation where you will probably be having the same conversation with the same doctor you saw at your last NHS appointment.
Sympathy with consultants and qualified doctors - no.
Sympathy with juniors doctors - yes, but look around you.

 

[NearHull]

There are around 75,000 vacancies in the NHS. There’s a workforce of 1.2m. That many vacancies must impact care.

If I’ve done my sums correctly, that’s a staff deficit of circa 6%. Appreciating that it will probably be a greater % at the lower pay levels , would the 6% vacancy level be normal for most businesses?

 

[Deleted member 29109]

I play football with two lads who are teachers. Both head of some department or other, but aren’t they all these days .

They couldn’t be more different. One is the typical ‘we all work a million hours a week, it’s sooooo stressful, people in the private sector don’t understand how hard we work’ type. Always complaining.
The other says it’s a piece of cake if you are just slightly organised and crack on with your work.
It’s fair to say they don’t agree, which can be amusing at times.

I see this all the time at work. Lots of people claim they are busy and have too much to do. When in fact they are either disorganised, lazy or incompetent. Yes, sometimes there are peaks where workload gets too much. But then there are ways of dealing with that if you have half a brain.

I’ve had to interact with a lot of teachers in lengthy discussions over the last couple of years. Some of them are genuinely brilliant. The majority however, have been a complete joke. Utterly incompetent, incapable of doing anything they say they will or even just being able to have a conversation like an adult. The funny part is, they think they are somehow superior because they are a teacher, or head of year 8 blue pencil sharpeners. I think a lot of them want to be teachers because they wanted to stay at school all of their lives.

 

[RichA]

I play football with two lads who are teachers. Both head of some department or other, but aren’t they all these days .

They couldn’t be more different. One is the typical ‘we all work a million hours a week, it’s sooooo stressful, people in the private sector don’t understand how hard we work’ type. Always complaining.
The other says it’s a piece of cake if you are just slightly organised and crack on with your work.
It’s fair to say they don’t agree, which can be amusing at times.

I see this all the time at work. Lots of people claim they are busy and have too much to do. When in fact they are either disorganised, lazy or incompetent. Yes, sometimes there are peaks where workload gets too much. But then there are ways of dealing with that if you have half a brain.

I’ve had to interact with a lot of teachers in lengthy discussions over the last couple of years. Some of them are genuinely brilliant. The majority however, have been a complete joke. Utterly incompetent, incapable of doing anything they say they will or even just being able to have a conversation like an adult. The funny part is, they think they are somehow superior because they are a teacher, or head of year 8 blue pencil sharpeners. I think a lot of them want to be teachers because they wanted to stay at school all of their lives.

I'm a little defensive of teachers as MrsA is a secondary school teacher, as were my parents.
However, knowing a few teachers from other circles I mix in, I get what you're saying. There is an element of martyrdom among them - it's something my dad used to mention decades ago in relation to some of his staff.
That said, it's true of some of my colleagues in a totally different job and I'm guessing you might see it in yours. I've gone 80% this year so I can spend more time with my dad. My workload hasn't changed and remains the same as my full-time colleagues. Some of them manage to justify overtime and are on the verge of nervous breakdowns while I wonder how I manage to spread my week's work across 4 days.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

I'm a little defensive of teachers as MrsA is a secondary school teacher, as were my parents.
However, knowing a few teachers from other circles I mix in, I get what you're saying. There is an element of martyrdom among them - it's something my dad used to mention decades ago in relation to some of his staff.
That said, it's true of some of my colleagues in a totally different job and I'm guessing you might see it in yours. I've gone 80% this year so I can spend more time with my dad. My workload hasn't changed and remains the same as my full-time colleagues. Some of them manage to justify overtime and are on the verge of nervous breakdowns while I wonder how I manage to spread my week's work across 4 days.

It’s 100% not just teachers. I think you hit the nail on the head saying there element of martyrdom among them though. Same goes for NHS staff.

We are told that we are not allowed to criticise some professions, but why not when they are not providing the services or value they should be?

It isn’t unique to the public sector. I see it everyday in my industry. If I had a fiver for every time I’ve been told by someone they are too busy or don’t have time. I’d have retired by now.
I saw it too when I worked in manufacturing. I was told by a couple of the older machinists to slow down as I was making the rest of them look bad and their overtime might be cut.

A lot of public sector jobs and services need modernising. But there is too much incentive for too many people not to change.

 

[williamalex1]

Have they worked out how long it will take to recoup the money they're losing all of the time while on strike? also not paying national insurance contributions, which will be deducted from total contributions
I remember being on strike for 17 weeks around 1972/73ish.
As a time-served electrician with the local council, my wage was only £24 per week for a 44-hour week, including a Saturday morning [overtime ]
We eventually got a 5 p an hour rise.
Can anyone work out how long it took to recoup my losses, working the same hours?
While the local authority saved money by not having to pay out any wages to us.

Entirely different from the private sector getting paid for work done by customers.
TIA

I worked out it took approximately 4 years to recoup the amount we lost in wages.
There must be better ways of getting a pay rise rather than going on full out strikes.
The rise you get is the money the employer has saved by not paying your wages.
Perhaps working to rule where you still get paid.

 

[Hobbit]

If I’ve done my sums correctly, that’s a staff deficit of circa 6%. Appreciating that it will probably be a greater % at the lower pay levels , would the 6% vacancy level be normal for most businesses?

Typical U.K. turnover is close on 14%, though lower in the public sector. There are a few issues with the current vacancies. The time taken to train clinical staff - there is a core turnover rate but it’s the extra, especially post-Covid burnout, loss that is seriously impacting numbers. Actually finding people that want the job is a major issue. For example, one of our friends is a 30+yr theatre recovery sister. Her staff, apart from her, have all been recruited in the last 18 months. And all of them are Filipino which makes for a close knit team but I dread to think what it’s done to the hospital in the Philippines.