Matchplay semi final tomorrow-Almost beaten before I start!

[Orikoru]

I think that just because he used this example to bring up the point that people should declare their old handicaps, that doesn't automatically mean he's exhibiting sour grapes over the loss. It's just a situation that prompted him to start the discussion. Hence why he was keen to say fair play on his behalf.

 

[bobmac]

But as said after 10 years it doesnt matter because without playing for ten years then someones ability changes - so you give them the HC they gain with the three cards but just monitor

How do you know he hasn't played in 10 years?
That's one of the questions I would ask before issuing a ''new'' handicap.
And even if he hadn't played in 10 years, he'd still have the knowledge of a 5 handcapper, hed just be out of practice.

I saw a guy who went from 2 to 8 in one year by moving clubs and forgetting to mention he used to be off 2.
He of course spent that summer hoovering up prizes at other clubs opens and he only got 6 shots back.
Matey here got 13 back, bet he couldn't believe his luck.

The fact that he is playing to single figures and winning knock out matches easily even after being cut by 3 suggests to me his initial handicap was way off the mark.

 

[2blue]

I think you're probably right on the fact they should be playing of a lower handicap.

However just my thoughts:

1. I think you've handled it better than most with being complementary about his game and taking the defeat, but I can see LiverpoolPhil's point that the comments on handicap, play etc. is effectively throwing shade on the win and can come across as sour grapes. I'd just prefer it if people accepted any handicap decisions and played without comment to a degree, but that's more my overriding view on how easily bandit is thrown around in jest or for real rather than this case.

2. Doesn't it depend on what stage in life he is as to how ridiculous a high handicap is (or other circumstances). E.g. Teenager playing every day off 5, then going away 10 years drinking 20 pints and weighing 20 stone, may not have the same ability. I'm very different but as a kid played to 16 - good short game, low distances but pretty straight, 4 years at uni and ever since - grew so significant power, much more yardage but still around 16 as short game goes as i play so infrequently. Can have hot patches of even through 9 holes (sadly never 1-9 or 10-18) but my medal and stableford scores reflect my inconsistency.

What initial H/cap did you get on your return? Did you submit just 'any old cards' or choose 3 more appropriate ones?

 

[garyinderry]

Initial handicaps can be difficult to judge. Even more so If a player doesn't tell the secretary that he used to be quite handy and is then given an 18 handicap.

My mates younger brother joined the club this year after playing sporadically for the last few years. Hits the ball well but chipped awful and putted even worse.

After handing in 3 cards in which he played in awful weather. He was given 18 shots.

By his 3rd comp he had sorted his 3 and 4 putting and scored 49 points.

This just shows how hard it can be to give an initial handicap as he has done everything by the book.

Its just the book doesn't tell you that you shouldn't play a handicap card in the pishing rain and howling wind and also before you've taken the time to iron out kinks in your game. Just do 3 cards and we will sort it out, no questions asked.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

How do you know he hasn't played in 10 years?
That's one of the questions I would ask before issuing a ''new'' handicap.
And even if he hadn't played in 10 years, he'd still have the knowledge of a 5 handcapper, hed just be out of practice.

Hence why i asked the OP - Has player been gone for ten years from golf totally - ten years is a long time , and plenty have "knowledge" of a pro but that means nothing if you cant put that knowledge on the course

I saw a guy who went from 2 to 8 in one year by moving clubs and forgetting to mention he used to be off 2.
He of course spent that summer hoovering up prizes at other clubs opens and he only got 6 shots back.

thats one year though - not ten and the HC sec didnt do his proper checks.

Matey here got 13 back, bet he couldn't believe his luck.

The fact that he is playing to single figures and winning knock out matches easily even after being cut by 3 suggests to me his initial handicap was way off the mark.

Matey here it appears didnt play for ten years - 13 shots isnt that bad when you consider plenty do that whilst still playing - and how many people play to "single figures" when playing matchplay ? its a regular occurence

And his initial Handicap would have been done with three cards and then its automatically monitored - and the HC sec should also monitor.

Not everyone is trying to cheat the system

 

[Old Skier]

Not sure what the HC Sec can do other than ask the question. We ask the question on the application form and still we have had one person failed to own up.

It's about trust.

 

[Dibby]

Based on this thread and many others on this forum, I have to wonder why golf persists with handicapped competitions. I get the concept of giving everyone a chance, but that's not really what sport is about, it's about the effort put in and usually the best person win, not the person who performs better than they normally do, but still not as good as others. Why can't higher handicappers play against better players and just enjoy the game, rather than needing to "win" when actually they performed worse, and so didn't really win.

Maybe it's because I have been competitive in another sport, where there was no handicapping. I have heard people say the great thing about golf is anyone can play competitively, but given all the threads about banditry and the flaws in the system, let alone the artificialness of it, is this really true?

 

[Orikoru]

Based on this thread and many others on this forum, I have to wonder why golf persists with handicapped competitions. I get the concept of giving everyone a chance, but that's not really what sport is about, it's about the effort put in and usually the best person win, not the person who performs better than they normally do, but still not as good as others. Why can't higher handicappers play against better players and just enjoy the game, rather than needing to "win" when actually they performed worse, and so didn't really win.

Maybe it's because I have been competitive in another sport, where there was no handicapping. I have heard people say the great thing about golf is anyone can play competitively, but given all the threads about banditry and the flaws in the system, let alone the artificialness of it, is this really true?

If there were no handicaps then the chap who comes to the game at aged 40 would have basically zero reason to enter competitions. You would just have people joining clubs and playing bounce games with other members maybe, but the competition entries would be very low.

I don't disagree with all of what you say though, I do think clubs could do with more scratch comps throughout the year. I'm pretty sure my club only has one, the gross prize in the Club Champs. I wouldn't be entering any scratch comps obviously, but I think it would keep a lot of the low handicappers happier if there were a few more. Something for everybody.

 

[GB72]

Based on this thread and many others on this forum, I have to wonder why golf persists with handicapped competitions. I get the concept of giving everyone a chance, but that's not really what sport is about, it's about the effort put in and usually the best person win, not the person who performs better than they normally do, but still not as good as others. Why can't higher handicappers play against better players and just enjoy the game, rather than needing to "win" when actually they performed worse, and so didn't really win.

Maybe it's because I have been competitive in another sport, where there was no handicapping. I have heard people say the great thing about golf is anyone can play competitively, but given all the threads about banditry and the flaws in the system, let alone the artificialness of it, is this really true?

I suppose that is it, I have played another sport where I was competitive albeit a team sport. I do not go out every week expecting to win, or even play well, but they system allows me to go out and be competitive. If I cannot feel that I have a chance of being competitive then I would soon lose interest in competitions and would stick to rounds with mates.

The thing is, other sports do have an type of handicapping system in that that they are played in leagues. You should be playing against teams of similar abilities to create a fair match.

 

[bobmac]

Hence why i asked the OP - Has player been gone for ten years from golf totally - ten years is a long time , and plenty have "knowledge" of a pro but that means nothing if you cant put that knowledge on the course

But he did, he used to play off 5.

thats one year though - not ten and the HC sec didnt do his proper checks.

How can he check when the guy doesn't tell him he used to be off 5?

Matey here it appears didnt play for ten years

We don't know that

and how many people play to "single figures" when playing matchplay ?

Just in case you missed it.........

Last week he play a 9 Hotel qualifier and had 5 pars and 4 bogeys, played to 8.

Stroke play

And his initial Handicap would have been done with three cards and then its automatically monitored - and the HC sec should also monitor.

I'm well aware of that.

Not everyone is trying to cheat the system

I didn't say everyone was.

 

[Dibby]

I suppose that is it, I have played another sport where I was competitive albeit a team sport. I do not go out every week expecting to win, or even play well, but they system allows me to go out and be competitive. If I cannot feel that I have a chance of being competitive then I would soon lose interest in competitions and would stick to rounds with mates.

The thing is, other sports do have an type of handicapping system in that that they are played in leagues. You should be playing against teams of similar abilities to create a fair match.

Some sports have leagues, but not all, and leagues don't try and even it out like handicaps, they are harder to manipulate, in that you can only win the league you are in, you can't sandbag into the bottom league and then win the top league.

If you're not great at athletics, you don't get to run 80m whilst everyone else does 100m, you just get beat and accept that you are SOL when it comes to prizes, but enjoy the experience of training, racing, and bettering yourself. Same with weightlifting, boxing, and a whole bunch of other individual sports.

 

[bobmac]

Some sports have leagues, but not all, and leagues don't try and even it out like handicaps, they are harder to manipulate, in that you can only win the league you are in, you can't sandbag into the bottom league and then win the top top league.

If you're not great at athletics, you don't get to run 80m whilst everyone else does 100m, you just get beat and accept that you are SOL when it comes to prizes, but enjoy the experience of training, racing, and bettering yourself. Same with weightlifting, boxing, and a whole bunch of other individual sports.

I don't know any other sport where it gets harder to win the better you get

 

[GB72]

Some sports have leagues, but not all, and leagues don't try and even it out like handicaps, they are harder to manipulate, in that you can only win the league you are in, you can't sandbag into the bottom league and then win the top league.

If you're not great at athletics, you don't get to run 80m whilst everyone else does 100m, you just get beat and accept that you are SOL when it comes to prizes, but enjoy the experience of training, racing, and bettering yourself. Same with weightlifting, boxing, and a whole bunch of other individual sports.

You run at a level of competition that you are able to compete in. My wife took up powerlifting in her 40s. She competes in a level of competition that is appropriate to her age, weight etc and the entries are classified accordingly with first second and third in each class. If clubs want to assess and split the membership in a similar way then all well and good. As I said, I enjoy competitive sport. It would have no interest for me if there was no chance of me being competitive. That is not winning, that is feeling that there is a chance to compete. As I said, totally personal but without the handicapping system, competitions would have no interest to me and, I suspect, golf as a whole would be far less appealing.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

But he did, he used to play off 5.

ten years ago - lots change in that period

How can he check when the guy doesn't tell him he used to be off 5?

Search using his name on CDH - simple search process and then "ask the player" - even more so when he is just rejoining the same club

We don't know that

Hence why i asked to confirm whats been suggested - "played ten years ago"

Just in case you missed it.........


Stroke play

9 holes - a round is 18 and have seen 20 handicappers go round 9 holes in 3 over , it happens regulary

I'm well aware of that.



I didn't say everyone was.

Its all about judging each situation as it happens - i have dealt with multiple people who have returned to golf from a significant period out - not one single one was able to play to his old handicap and most still cant years later.

Seen a guy who played to 4 - leave for 8 years come back put in three cards - gets 11 , everyone complains - still 2 years later is playing to 11.

 

[Dibby]

You run at a level of competition that you are able to compete in. My wife took up powerlifting in her 40s. She competes in a level of competition that is appropriate to her age, weight etc and the entries are classified accordingly with first second and third in each class. If clubs want to assess and split the membership in a similar way then all well and good. As I said, I enjoy competitive sport. It would have no interest for me if there was no chance of me being competitive. That is not winning, that is feeling that there is a chance to compete. As I said, totally personal but without the handicapping system, competitions would have no interest to me and, I suspect, golf as a whole would be far less appealing.

I have no issues with weight, age, gender etc... classes. These are what they are, you can't be a 25 year old, 100kg male and enter the the over 40's 48kg womens competition (ignoring a couple of recent transgender incidents). Powerlifting doesn't have classes based on how much you lifted previously. I can't go and lift 50Kg in a few competitions, get it so 200Kg is added to my total and then go and lift a 500Kg total and blow away someone who is the same age, weight and gender, but who lift 550Kg.

A handicap doesn't really make you competitive. You may feel like you are competing, but in actuality, you are not at all. Just like when many people learn the golf swing, feel is not real. Maybe some people like that, but to me, it seems pointless and artificial.

 

[SatchFan]

I was playing off 7 when I gave up at the age of 18 (wine, women and work). Thirty years later my wife suggested I took it up again and within two weeks of the restart I was breaking 80. A bit like riding a bike.

 

[Deleted member 21258]

I for one, am glad for handicaps, and will take the few off things that comes with it and long may it be like that.

It is the only sport I have come across that I can have a game against my mum, my wife and my son and it be competitive between us. Love that about the sport.

 

[bobmac]

9 holes - a round is 18 and have seen 20 handicappers go round 9 holes in 3 over , it happens regulary

I'm not surprised if you're their h/cap sec

 

[NWJocko]

Search using his name on CDH - simple search process and then "ask the player" - even more so when he is just rejoining the same club


.

Not always that simple though Phil, we've had someone join who was a member somewhere else until 5/6 years ago and doesn't exist in the CDH from their previous membership for some reason.

Second part relies on the integrity of the player involved, you'd be surprised how many do not go by the rule of "full disclosure"

 

[pendodave]

I was playing off 7 when I gave up at the age of 18 (wine, women and work). Thirty years later my wife suggested I took it up again and within two weeks of the restart I was breaking 80. A bit like riding a bike.

this is how I feel about pretty much any sport which doesn't rely solely on endurance or strength. I am extremely dubious about any golfer who claims a double figure handicap after being off mid/low cap.