LIV Golf
- Thread starter MarkT
- Start date
pokerjoke
Money List Winner
So the actual Liv golf thread has now become a Liv discussion thread 
Just pathetic that people who have no interest in Liv
Hated Liv because of moral standards in the country,yet can’t seem to leave it alone.
Liv-ing rent free in their heads constantly.
Apparently Liv has no crowds , yet bigger names are joining all the time.
The leaderboard certainly seems like the better tour atm
Just pathetic that people who have no interest in Liv
Hated Liv because of moral standards in the country,yet can’t seem to leave it alone.
Liv-ing rent free in their heads constantly.
Apparently Liv has no crowds , yet bigger names are joining all the time.
The leaderboard certainly seems like the better tour atm
Hate is a bit harsh. But like Greg, LIVites like to feel a victim mentality.So the actual Liv golf thread has now become a Liv discussion thread
Just pathetic that people who have no interest in Liv
Hated Liv because of moral standards in the country,yet can’t seem to leave it alone.
Liv-ing rent free in their heads constantly.
Apparently Liv has no crowds , yet bigger names are joining all the time.
The leaderboard certainly seems like the better tour atm
But do agree with the main point. The interest in LIV is not in its golf, but whether 8t can survive as an entity, and what its its impact on the future of elite tours. 17000 post in the LIV thread versus 300 in the actual LIV golf thread highlights the difference in interest. So do agree those following LIV golf, for whatever reason, should be allowed their safe space to do so.
wjemather
Well-known member
It actually just reflects the length of time each thread has been running, and how frequently the trolls repeat their mantra on this thread.
SteveW86
Head Pro
I think both sides of the argument are equally guilty of repeating the same things over and over.
wjemather
Well-known member
Absolutely.
Mel Smooth
Hacker
Be interesting to see if this is actually true. Personally, it wouldn't surprise me - I feel the PGAT is now being controlled by Tiger who is probably trying to protect what the PGAT was. Could LIV potentially now be looking to do a deal with the DPWT?
D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
For them to do a deal with DP they would need to buy out the PGAT who own a big percentage
But I can see the DP wanting to keep a partnership with the PGAT
chrisd
Major Champion
I just watched 10 minutes of LIV golf for the first time ever - are the gates open to fans to come and watch?
Yes. Everyone who is interested in watching LIV is there.
D
Deleted member 15717
Guest
Eddie Pep wrote a prettt fair piece on the state of golf. Like him or not, he makes a few good points.
“Once the Q&A was opened up to the audience last night, to nobody's surprise it wasn't long before the question of LIV and the future of professional golf came up. Some thoughts...
I said as much at the dinner and I'll write it here too; I have no real idea where professional golf is heading, but I do know what I hope for. I hope professional golf ends up at a place where it really should have started a few years ago with the emergence of LIV, and that looks something more akin to cricket with the IPL. I hope we find a way for LIV to reduce its schedule and it fit within a window, or two, where it has the opportunity to thrive. I would argue that strategically this has in fact been LIV's major error, in that by going too big too soon, it missed an opportunity to garner a critical mass of support, principally via the leading players, where they could have become invested in the idea, seen it as a replacement of the lucrative World Golf Championships and seen the broader potential to expand globally. The brands, sponsors etc already existing within the sport would have likely followed, and LIV would have had the chance to grow and become more visible, and potentially more valuable in the way the IPL has in cricket. I occasionally wonder if it is indeed why Yasir Al-Rumayyan's heavy involvement has been a hindrance. The deal that has just been done with the ATP Tour and PIF seems to me to be a more sensible one, whereas the LIV project at times feels like a pet project (speculative) of Yasir's, furthered by the vengeance of Greg Norman, of course (less speculative).
I watched an interesting video on "Trophy Assets" this week. I wanted to understand a bit more on what constitutes one and how they are valued. It turns out, as you probably suspect, that they are often emotional purchases, and the price that is paid has very little to do with financial returns. Drawing the relationship between the price and value isn't performed in the same way it would traditionally be done when considering another business venture. Take the NFL, the prices paid for this group of assets has grown substantially over the last decade, from around a multiple of four times revenues to seven times revenues. The NFL operates on average with a healthy operating margin and revenues continue to grow. That operating margin varies tremendously between different sports, with the average Premier League teams OM sitting around 8% (as per the research by Aswath Damodaran - 2012-2022). I mention these because even in spite of the economics behind the investments, whether good or bad, to the owners of franchises within these leagues it doesn't matter a great deal, all that matters is they own the Trophy Asset. Now think about LIV golf. What do they (PIF of Saudi Arabia) own? As far as I can tell they don't own much, if anything. If they think LIV golf is itself a Trophy Asset, I have something to sell them, and if they think LIV golf can become one anytime soon in its current form, then good luck with that too. All they 'own' is a player, for a set period of time, and even that has the potential to be watered down should the PGA Tour find a way of affording them the occasional appearance. This is something I cannot quite wrap my head around, that after spending billions of dollars they have no lasting stake in a valuable entity, and what they do have ownership in isn't lasting and is falling in value due to a lack of prominence and visibility.
The SSG group, who have just invested into the PGA Tour Enterprises, now have an ownership stake in a Trophy Asset. Whether you, I, or Flushing It like it or not, the PGA Tour has history, prestige, inherent value, and therefore constitutes what could rightly be referred to as a Trophy Asset. An asset which incidentally makes money, which is more than can be said of many Premier League football clubs.
Maybe I'm just being a contrarian for the sake of it, or maybe I'm not, but I would posit that history shows us that the most likely outcome in all of this is that the PGA Tour survives and LIV golf doesn't, unless it undergoes significant changes and seeks to fit in more cooperatively. The perception out there, I think largely fuelled by the strident pro-LIV accounts that exist on X, is that LIV is winning, or that LIV will win this war. We should be cognis(z)ant of who we listen to and the messaging we see. One thing I would ask all fellow professional golfers to realise and understand is that the money coming into the game right now won't last forever. The money being funnelled into LIV golf also won't last forever. Nothing lasts forever on that front. What does persist through time however, particularly as it relates to sport, are the foundational principles of open and fair competition, meritocracy, respect and passion. We should be asking ourselves what is sustainable at times like this, not what can we take for ourselves, and use history as our guide to understand what the most likely outcome will be. It will provide a sense of calm in these uncertain times, and help us decipher whether we are likely living with a lasting reality, or not.“
“Once the Q&A was opened up to the audience last night, to nobody's surprise it wasn't long before the question of LIV and the future of professional golf came up. Some thoughts...
I said as much at the dinner and I'll write it here too; I have no real idea where professional golf is heading, but I do know what I hope for. I hope professional golf ends up at a place where it really should have started a few years ago with the emergence of LIV, and that looks something more akin to cricket with the IPL. I hope we find a way for LIV to reduce its schedule and it fit within a window, or two, where it has the opportunity to thrive. I would argue that strategically this has in fact been LIV's major error, in that by going too big too soon, it missed an opportunity to garner a critical mass of support, principally via the leading players, where they could have become invested in the idea, seen it as a replacement of the lucrative World Golf Championships and seen the broader potential to expand globally. The brands, sponsors etc already existing within the sport would have likely followed, and LIV would have had the chance to grow and become more visible, and potentially more valuable in the way the IPL has in cricket. I occasionally wonder if it is indeed why Yasir Al-Rumayyan's heavy involvement has been a hindrance. The deal that has just been done with the ATP Tour and PIF seems to me to be a more sensible one, whereas the LIV project at times feels like a pet project (speculative) of Yasir's, furthered by the vengeance of Greg Norman, of course (less speculative).
I watched an interesting video on "Trophy Assets" this week. I wanted to understand a bit more on what constitutes one and how they are valued. It turns out, as you probably suspect, that they are often emotional purchases, and the price that is paid has very little to do with financial returns. Drawing the relationship between the price and value isn't performed in the same way it would traditionally be done when considering another business venture. Take the NFL, the prices paid for this group of assets has grown substantially over the last decade, from around a multiple of four times revenues to seven times revenues. The NFL operates on average with a healthy operating margin and revenues continue to grow. That operating margin varies tremendously between different sports, with the average Premier League teams OM sitting around 8% (as per the research by Aswath Damodaran - 2012-2022). I mention these because even in spite of the economics behind the investments, whether good or bad, to the owners of franchises within these leagues it doesn't matter a great deal, all that matters is they own the Trophy Asset. Now think about LIV golf. What do they (PIF of Saudi Arabia) own? As far as I can tell they don't own much, if anything. If they think LIV golf is itself a Trophy Asset, I have something to sell them, and if they think LIV golf can become one anytime soon in its current form, then good luck with that too. All they 'own' is a player, for a set period of time, and even that has the potential to be watered down should the PGA Tour find a way of affording them the occasional appearance. This is something I cannot quite wrap my head around, that after spending billions of dollars they have no lasting stake in a valuable entity, and what they do have ownership in isn't lasting and is falling in value due to a lack of prominence and visibility.
The SSG group, who have just invested into the PGA Tour Enterprises, now have an ownership stake in a Trophy Asset. Whether you, I, or Flushing It like it or not, the PGA Tour has history, prestige, inherent value, and therefore constitutes what could rightly be referred to as a Trophy Asset. An asset which incidentally makes money, which is more than can be said of many Premier League football clubs.
Maybe I'm just being a contrarian for the sake of it, or maybe I'm not, but I would posit that history shows us that the most likely outcome in all of this is that the PGA Tour survives and LIV golf doesn't, unless it undergoes significant changes and seeks to fit in more cooperatively. The perception out there, I think largely fuelled by the strident pro-LIV accounts that exist on X, is that LIV is winning, or that LIV will win this war. We should be cognis(z)ant of who we listen to and the messaging we see. One thing I would ask all fellow professional golfers to realise and understand is that the money coming into the game right now won't last forever. The money being funnelled into LIV golf also won't last forever. Nothing lasts forever on that front. What does persist through time however, particularly as it relates to sport, are the foundational principles of open and fair competition, meritocracy, respect and passion. We should be asking ourselves what is sustainable at times like this, not what can we take for ourselves, and use history as our guide to understand what the most likely outcome will be. It will provide a sense of calm in these uncertain times, and help us decipher whether we are likely living with a lasting reality, or not.“
D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
HomerJSimpson
Hall of Famer
A sensible piece that will fall on deaf ears with the golfing powers
I guess one view is that the PGAT is (almost) self-perpetuating because of its history, and because of that history it has a tangible value. And it is the sponsors and TV rights that make up the vast majority of that very healthy income. And the PGAT’s balance sheet shows a (separate) massive pot of money.
But it’s at this point that the finances can be viewed several ways. Sponsors and TV rights haven’t grown in line with the inflationary rises within the game, a lot of those rises are down to the money PGAT are spending to ensure the best players stay with them. That’s a cost the PGAT hadn’t expected but, depending on which news piece you read, they are coping with that. But then there’s the $40m in legal bills, mainly because of LIV. Quite what their usual annual legal bills amount to, it’s safe to say there would still a cost on the balance sheet irrespective of LIV.
Another loss making arm of PGAT is the 11 TPC courses, currently losing around $35m. They’ve been up for sale for a while but without any takers. And then there’s the 13 executives that are now earning 7 figure sums, which is raising eyebrows.
Not to worry, there’s still that massive pot of money which is often touted around to show that the PGAT is very much in the black…. Or is it? That pot is actually the pension fund managed by PGAT, the contributions into it coming from the players, and there’s rumblings of disquiet from the Trustees over PGAT’S gaslighting over it.
So is the PGAT financially sound or not, especially with LIV picking away at it? In reality it could lose hundreds of millions, which it isn’t, and still be viable because of the size of its cash flow and its main assets, the prestige of it signature events. It is those signature events, and their pulling power with the sponsors, TV companies and many of the players that will see the PGAT retain its dominant position. That is the holy grail LIV needs to get a part of before it will become viable.
In my opinion, LIV is still the brash new kid on the block and will remain so till it has better access for it players to the top events and a meaningful agreement over world ranking points. But that bit is just my opinion.
Mel Smooth
Hacker
Oddsocks
Ryder Cup Winner
This is the beginning of the pga cracking.
D
Deleted member 29109
Guest
You do know the PGA and the PGAT are two entirely separate organisations right?
Oddsocks
Ryder Cup Winner
I do, and didn’t the pga fully align themselves at the start with the PGAT. Tides are turning.
Good to see them recognising Niemanns quality.
wjemather
Well-known member
Not really. The PGAoA invited a number of LIV players to the PGA Championship last year and had no issue with any LIV players making the Ryder Cup team.
Fore Right
Well-known member
Until a pathway is found for Liv Golfers this sends a message to the likes of Talor Gooch.
Dont just moan about the situation , go out and try and do something about it.
The Masters and USPGA have recognised not only his talent and play but the fact he went round the world playing events in the off season trying to qualify and improve his world ranking.
His Australian Open win got him into the Open and now he is also in The Masters and USPGA.
Wouldnt be surprised if he gets an invitation to the US Open but if he doesnt I bet he goes to Qualifying to try and get in which Talor declined to do last year.
Dont just moan about the situation , go out and try and do something about it.
The Masters and USPGA have recognised not only his talent and play but the fact he went round the world playing events in the off season trying to qualify and improve his world ranking.
His Australian Open win got him into the Open and now he is also in The Masters and USPGA.
Wouldnt be surprised if he gets an invitation to the US Open but if he doesnt I bet he goes to Qualifying to try and get in which Talor declined to do last year.
