LIV Golf

[Swango1980]

They didn't though.
Outside of the Majors, which events would you be guaranteed to see the vast majority of the top players going head to head?

Pre LIV, there were more events that had more of the world's top players than now. Simply not the case anymore.

LIV doesn't, as it doesn't feature the likes of McIlroy, Scheffler, Cantlay, Spieth, etc.

PGAT doesn't, as the likes of Brooks, Bryson, DJ and Smith would not be at events, now Rahm won't be either. And even if the PGAT hadn't banned them, that would still have been the case as the LIV players would not have played all the same events they did previously PLUS all the LIV events (and in some cases it would be impossible anyway as events would clash).

So, the presence of LIV has diluted golf. Whether it is called LIV or something else, whether is is fronted by Greg Norman or someone else or whether it is funded by the Middle East or from somewhere else, the above is still true.

And is LIV simply better than the pro golf we watched before? A few might think so, but I certainly don't. LIV has:

• Less events
• Fewer rounds per event
• Less coverage per round, as everything is crammed into 4-5 hours
• Shotgun start (big deal, and something I actually dislike)
• Teams (who cares)
• Fewer golfers (therefore less competitive)
• Shorts (the one positive)

 

[Deleted member 21445]

Pre LIV, there were more events that had more of the world's top players than now. Simply not the case anymore.

LIV doesn't, as it doesn't feature the likes of McIlroy, Scheffler, Cantlay, Spieth, etc.

PGAT doesn't, as the likes of Brooks, Bryson, DJ and Smith would not be at events, now Rahm won't be either. And even if the PGAT hadn't banned them, that would still have been the case as the LIV players would not have played all the same events they did previously PLUS all the LIV events (and in some cases it would be impossible anyway as events would clash).

So, the presence of LIV has diluted golf. Whether it is called LIV or someone else, whether is is fronted by Greg Norman or someone else or whether it is funded by the Middle East or from somewhere else, the above is still true.

And is LIV simply better than the pro golf we watched before? A few might think so, but I certainly don't. LIV has:

• Less events
• Fewer rounds per event
• Less coverage per round, as everything is crammed into 4-5 hours
• Shotgun start (big deal, and something I actually dislike)
• Teams (who cares)
• Fewer golfers (therefore less competitive)
• Shorts (the one positive)

Most of the golfing world blame Liv because they came along and caused disruption that has fractured professional golf.
The truth is they did nothing wrong and the PGL before them tried to do the same thing, although the PGAT acted like they owned professional golf the truth is Liv as a new business came along and challenged an established business in the same way that Dyson came in and challenged Hoover in the vacuum cleaner market.
Just for the record James Dyson offered his design to Hoover who arrogantly sent him packing and he was forced to go his own way, look how that ended up.

The PGA Tours handling of this from start to finish has been so bad and is the main reason we are where we are.

1. They should have spoken to the PIF at the very beginning when they reached out/decided they wanted to invest in golf, if Jay Monahan had engaged with the PIF then Liv would never have even happened.

2. Liv is launched and they arrogantly thought none of their top players would leave the PGAT, a gross misjudgment as 14 of the top 50 players at the time left the PGAT for Liv.

3. Then they take a moral stance to stop more players going paying for 9/11 families to turn up at USA LIV Events to protest

4. They then activate an unsustainable model thinking the sponsors would come up with the cash but the opposite happened , sponsors like Honda and AT&T left.

5. Upon realisation that they are running out of money, cant afford to compete with the PIF they blindside their players , lose their trust/loyalty by announcing merger with the PIF/Liv without even consulting their players


If anyone has ruined professional golf it's Jay Monahan for his terrible handling of this whole affair.

How he is still commissioner is frankly astonishing

 

[Captain_Black.]

My take.
Everyone has morals to a certain extent.
How much money it will take for an individual to forget those morals is the question.

Very few individuals are completely uncorruptable when huge amounts of dosh are waved under their noses.

 

[Mel Smooth]

Most of the golfing world blame Liv because they came along and caused disruption that has fractured professional golf.
The truth is they did nothing wrong and the PGL before them tried to do the same thing, although the PGAT acted like they owned professional golf the truth is Liv as a new business came along and challenged an established business in the same way that Dyson came in and challenged Hoover in the vacuum cleaner market.
Just for the record James Dyson offered his design to Hoover who arrogantly sent him packing and he was forced to go his own way, look how that ended up.

The PGA Tours handling of this from start to finish has been so bad and is the main reason we are where we are.

1. They should have spoken to the PIF at the very beginning when they reached out/decided they wanted to invest in golf, if Jay Monahan had engaged with the PIF then Liv would never have even happened.

2. Liv is launched and they arrogantly thought none of their top players would leave the PGAT, a gross misjudgment as 14 of the top 50 players at the time left the PGAT for Liv.

3. Then they take a moral stance to stop more players going paying for 9/11 families to turn up at USA LIV Events to protest

4. They then activate an unsustainable model thinking the sponsors would come up with the cash but the opposite happened , sponsors like Honda and AT&T left.

5. Upon realisation that they are running out of money, cant afford to compete with the PIF they blindside their players , lose their trust/loyalty by announcing merger with the PIF/Liv without even consulting their players


If anyone has ruined professional golf it's Jay Monahan for his terrible handling of this whole affair.

How he is still commissioner is frankly astonishing

Yeah, where is Jay?

McGinley was blaming the players earlier today for the state the PGAT is in - citing they're not capable of making high level businesses decisions - it's a player run organisation now the wheels are falling off - 6 months back Jay was the man who was going to have the authority to put LIV in the rubbish bin,.

Kudos to the posters who called it correctly - there aren't many of us.

 

[D-S]

24 in the USA this year, not a small number either with 2,400 on death row as well

Population of Saudi 36 million, population of USA 332 million - admittedly the whole justice system in the USA is a disgrace and an anomaly versus most of the Western World..

 

[PJ87]

Sjd

Most of the golfing world blame Liv because they came along and caused disruption that has fractured professional golf.
The truth is they did nothing wrong and the PGL before them tried to do the same thing, although the PGAT acted like they owned professional golf the truth is Liv as a new business came along and challenged an established business in the same way that Dyson came in and challenged Hoover in the vacuum cleaner market.
Just for the record James Dyson offered his design to Hoover who arrogantly sent him packing and he was forced to go his own way, look how that ended up.

The PGA Tours handling of this from start to finish has been so bad and is the main reason we are where we are.

1. They should have spoken to the PIF at the very beginning when they reached out/decided they wanted to invest in golf, if Jay Monahan had engaged with the PIF then Liv would never have even happened.

2. Liv is launched and they arrogantly thought none of their top players would leave the PGAT, a gross misjudgment as 14 of the top 50 players at the time left the PGAT for Liv.

3. Then they take a moral stance to stop more players going paying for 9/11 families to turn up at USA LIV Events to protest

4. They then activate an unsustainable model thinking the sponsors would come up with the cash but the opposite happened , sponsors like Honda and AT&T left.

5. Upon realisation that they are running out of money, cant afford to compete with the PIF they blindside their players , lose their trust/loyalty by announcing merger with the PIF/Liv without even consulting their players


If anyone has ruined professional golf it's Jay Monahan for his terrible handling of this whole affair.

How he is still commissioner is frankly astonishing

Think this is spot on tbh

My take.
Everyone has morals to a certain extent.
How much money it will take for an individual to forget those morals is the question.

Very few individuals are completely uncorruptable when huge amounts of dosh are waved under their noses.

This is also true.

Can see why tiger turns it down he doesn't need to work another day in his life . Some people the money is too good to say no to

They are only one injury away from never playing again

 

[D-S]

Money might well make the world go around, but it is also the root of all evil. So the sayings go.

I think the quote is that “the love of money is the root of all evil” not money. Quite apt in this debate.

 

[Hobbit]

Yeah, where is Jay?

McGinley was blaming the players earlier today for the state the PGAT is in - citing they're not capable of making high level businesses decisions - it's a player run organisation now the wheels are falling off - 6 months back Jay was the man who was going to have the authority to put LIV in the rubbish bin,.

Kudos to the posters who called it correctly - there aren't many of us.

But it shouldn’t be an us and them Mel, irrespective of which side of the debate everyone is on. But if an argument is to be had I’ve seen the PGAT bully the European, and lesser, tour(s) for over 40 years. They’ve forced changes to schedules and ‘poached’ players for donkey’s years. The last high profile player who really wouldn’t cow-tow to the PGAT was Ballesteros. More recently saw the BMW at Wentworth get moved because of the PGAT changing it’s scheduling for the Fed-Ex.

But why can’t all the tours just get on and do their thing? Why does it have to be a binary choice?

On a personal level, I don’t mind if the PGAT has to bend a bit. I resent the damage they’ve done to the European tour down the years, and if they get a kicking now, or at least their wings clipped, good.

 

[RichA]

Most of the golfing world blame Liv because they came along and caused disruption that has fractured professional golf.
The truth is they did nothing wrong and the PGL before them tried to do the same thing, although the PGAT acted like they owned professional golf the truth is Liv as a new business came along and challenged an established business in the same way that Dyson came in and challenged Hoover in the vacuum cleaner market.
Just for the record James Dyson offered his design to Hoover who arrogantly sent him packing and he was forced to go his own way, look how that ended up.

The PGA Tours handling of this from start to finish has been so bad and is the main reason we are where we are.

1. They should have spoken to the PIF at the very beginning when they reached out/decided they wanted to invest in golf, if Jay Monahan had engaged with the PIF then Liv would never have even happened.

2. Liv is launched and they arrogantly thought none of their top players would leave the PGAT, a gross misjudgment as 14 of the top 50 players at the time left the PGAT for Liv.

3. Then they take a moral stance to stop more players going paying for 9/11 families to turn up at USA LIV Events to protest

4. They then activate an unsustainable model thinking the sponsors would come up with the cash but the opposite happened , sponsors like Honda and AT&T left.

5. Upon realisation that they are running out of money, cant afford to compete with the PIF they blindside their players , lose their trust/loyalty by announcing merger with the PIF/Liv without even consulting their players


If anyone has ruined professional golf it's Jay Monahan for his terrible handling of this whole affair.

How he is still commissioner is frankly astonishing

Not really seeing the Dyson / Hoover analogy. I think it's more like a manufactured antagonistic relationship between two families of manipulative, narcissistic sociopaths.

 

[Deleted member 21445]

Not really seeing the Dyson / Hoover analogy. I think it's more like a manufactured antagonistic relationship between two families of manipulative, narcissistic sociopaths.

Simple
Is just a new business challenging an established business.
The new business offered itself to them 1st but the established business arrogantly thought its position was to well established to be threatened.
So new business started is own company/tour.and quickly becomes a major threat

 

[Swango1980]

Most of the golfing world blame Liv because they came along and caused disruption that has fractured professional golf.
The truth is they did nothing wrong and the PGL before them tried to do the same thing, although the PGAT acted like they owned professional golf the truth is Liv as a new business came along and challenged an established business in the same way that Dyson came in and challenged Hoover in the vacuum cleaner market.
Just for the record James Dyson offered his design to Hoover who arrogantly sent him packing and he was forced to go his own way, look how that ended up.

The PGA Tours handling of this from start to finish has been so bad and is the main reason we are where we are.

1. They should have spoken to the PIF at the very beginning when they reached out/decided they wanted to invest in golf, if Jay Monahan had engaged with the PIF then Liv would never have even happened.

2. Liv is launched and they arrogantly thought none of their top players would leave the PGAT, a gross misjudgment as 14 of the top 50 players at the time left the PGAT for Liv.

3. Then they take a moral stance to stop more players going paying for 9/11 families to turn up at USA LIV Events to protest

4. They then activate an unsustainable model thinking the sponsors would come up with the cash but the opposite happened , sponsors like Honda and AT&T left.

5. Upon realisation that they are running out of money, cant afford to compete with the PIF they blindside their players , lose their trust/loyalty by announcing merger with the PIF/Liv without even consulting their players


If anyone has ruined professional golf it's Jay Monahan for his terrible handling of this whole affair.

How he is still commissioner is frankly astonishing

I'm not saying LIV did anything wrong (legally). They had a business venture they wanted to go with, and went with it. Not saying they should be arrested for doing so. But, just because they wanted to create something with their own goals and targets in mind, that does not automatically mean it is better for golf as a whole. Just like, well before LIV was even an idea, not everything the PGAT did differently was necessarily the best thing for golf. But at least this was done slowly and organically, and any changes were likely to follow what improved investment into the PGAT. A pretty good sign that the changes are helping it gain popularity. LIV doesn't really have that metric, it is just throw in a huge amount of cash and then sit back and see what comes out at the end.

As far as the PGAT is concerned post LIV, I think everyone agrees the PGAT have messed up in several ways, not least Monahan. And I'm not sure anyone ever argued the PGAT is perfect. But when they have billions of dollars invested into it by sponsors and broadcasters, you can see why they would get nervous if another tour suddenly crops up and dilutes their field (which has happened). Pre LIV I'm pretty sure they were sustainable, but they've been shocked into throwing much more cash at players now because of LIV, not sustainable. They may well have talked to PIF, but it never got to the stage that they ever wanted that investment. Just because PIF want to invest, does not give them a right that the HAVE to invest. And I believe the Americans don't tend to take too much investment from too many outside sources anyway. They should never have used 9/11 families to make a moral argument, as that blew up in their face when they went behind everyone's back to suddenly talk about a potential deal.

The emergence of LIV has all but destroyed elite level golf (again in my view). It is common sense that the worlds leading golfing body is not going to want to dilute themselves with something else. I don't think the football Premier League would give the thumbs up if Saudi Arabia invested a trillion pounds to clubs to play once every 3 weeks around the world in an international club competition. I doubt the Premier League, or even UEFA would say "fair enough, we'll dilute our competitions or become a smaller partner in your venture so that clubs can do this". And fans won't say "ohh great, less football and higher paid footballers, what's not to love?"

 

[Mel Smooth]

But it shouldn’t be an us and them Mel, irrespective of which side of the debate everyone is on. But if an argument is to be had I’ve seen the PGAT bully the European, and lesser, tour(s) for over 40 years. They’ve forced changes to schedules and ‘poached’ players for donkey’s years. The last high profile player who really wouldn’t cow-tow to the PGAT was Ballesteros. More recently saw the BMW at Wentworth get moved because of the PGAT changing it’s scheduling for the Fed-Ex.

But why can’t all the tours just get on and do their thing? Why does it have to be a binary choice?

On a personal level, I don’t mind if the PGAT has to bend a bit. I resent the damage they’ve done to the European tour down the years, and if they get a kicking now, or at least their wings clipped, good.

No it shouldn't be a binary choice - it's not for me - I watch LIV, I watch some PGAT and DPWT - I love the Ryder Cup.

And it won't be us and them for very much longer - the game will be unified soon enough. It will look a little different, but it will be better for it overall.

 

[D-S]

Very good description of the situation just now on Sky by James Weir (golf correspondent). Saying basically that the only people suffering from all this are the fans as they will only see the best against the best players 4 times a year now. Both sides need to get there heads together as this is bad for their followers and bad for the golf brand as it is seen just as a money grabbing and mercenary sport. This will take views, column inches and fans from the sport and as a small part of the sports world in general this is a dangerous thing long term if it is not sorted out and reunified soon.

 

[Swango1980]

Simple
Is just a new business challenging an established business.
The new business offered itself to them 1st but the established business arrogantly thought its position was to well established to be threatened.
So new business started is own company/tour.and quickly becomes a major threat

This is a pretty naive view of business. As per my last comment, why should an established business HAVE to accept business from elsewhere?

If there is any arrogance, it is the arrogance to have so much money, you just expect everyone to roll over and accept your cash when they throw it around.

 

[WGCRider]

Guys, you do all realise that Rahm's move forces all the LIV guys back onto your TV's in the near future don't you. Within 2 years, you will be watching the most enthralling golf you've ever had access to.

Wait?? LIV golf is broadcast??

 

[Deleted member 23270]

LIV could succeed but lots of changes are required first. The commentary team are pants, people don't like the shotgun start as they want to see the leaders going head to head down the stretch and people expect 72 holes with potential playoffs.
Seems it's only the fanboys that like the current setup.

 

[Beezerk]

LIV could succeed but lots of changes are required first. The commentary team are pants, people don't like the shotgun start as they want to see the leaders going head to head down the stretch and people expect 72 holes with potential playoffs.
Seems it's only the fanboys that like the current setup.

You missed out "some" when you used the word "people"

 

[Bunkermagnet]

Guys, you do all realise that Rahm's move forces all the LIV guys back onto your TV's in the near future don't you. Within 2 years, you will be watching the most enthralling golf you've ever had access to.

Are they going to be playing adult golf, ie 4 rounds or straight matchplay?
If not, I won't be bothering no matter who's playing.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I think the quote is that “the love of money is the root of all evil” not money. Quite apt in this debate.

Avarice I think is the sin

 

[Mel Smooth]

Are they going to be playing adult golf, ie 4 rounds or straight matchplay?
If not, I won't be bothering no matter who's playing.

Can I ask, do you play adult golf?