LIV Golf

[Slab]

I’ve kinda decided where I am with all this;

1. I don’t mind LIV existing as an invitational tour and that some of the biggest names are playing on it & I have no issue if it gets proportional OWGR points
2. I’d rather there was some tolerance (if not cooperation) between the tours, but I think that’s a pipe dream
3. I’d like the Majors to remain impartial & entry to be ‘open’ i.e regardless of Tour
4. I don’t really want LIV players to win their case/s to play on ‘rival’ tours while active on LIV circuit
5. I really really don’t want a stronger PGAT (that’ll devalue/kill off the ET) as it bids for its own self-preservation

Trouble is, from my ‘wishlist’ I think I’ll be lucky to get 1 out of 5

 

[Orikoru]

I’ve kinda decided where I am with all this;

1. I don’t mind LIV existing as an invitational tour and that some of the biggest names are playing on it & I have no issue if it gets proportional OWGR points
2. I’d rather there was some tolerance (if not cooperation) between the tours, but I think that’s a pipe dream
3. I’d like the Majors to remain impartial & entry to be ‘open’ i.e regardless of Tour
4. I don’t really want LIV players to win their case/s to play on ‘rival’ tours while active on LIV circuit
5. I really really don’t want a stronger PGAT (that’ll devalue/kill off the ET) as it bids for its own self-preservation

Trouble is, from my ‘wishlist’ I think I’ll be lucky to get 1 out of 5

It does seem like everyone could be a bit more pragmatic and find a way to co-exist, but such is not the way of the world.

 

[GB72]

I’ve kinda decided where I am with all this;

1. I don’t mind LIV existing as an invitational tour and that some of the biggest names are playing on it & I have no issue if it gets proportional OWGR points
2. I’d rather there was some tolerance (if not cooperation) between the tours, but I think that’s a pipe dream
3. I’d like the Majors to remain impartial & entry to be ‘open’ i.e regardless of Tour
4. I don’t really want LIV players to win their case/s to play on ‘rival’ tours while active on LIV circuit
5. I really really don’t want a stronger PGAT (that’ll devalue/kill off the ET) as it bids for its own self-preservation

Trouble is, from my ‘wishlist’ I think I’ll be lucky to get 1 out of 5

This is it, ideal world both coexist with a mutually agreed calendar so as certain agreed LIV and PGA Tour events do not clash. LIV members agree to play a certain amount of PGA Tour events so as not to massively devalue their product and LIV remove their claim to get ranking points so as members still have some reliance on the Tours and cannot just pitch up for Majors. Perhaps, based on their new working relationship, the obligation on LIV tour players to play a certain number of events should be split between the PGA Tour and the DP Tour.

 

[Swango1980]

This is it, ideal world both coexist with a mutually agreed calendar so as certain agreed LIV and PGA Tour events do not clash. LIV members agree to play a certain amount of PGA Tour events so as not to massively devalue their product and LIV remove their claim to get ranking points so as members still have some reliance on the Tours and cannot just pitch up for Majors. Perhaps, based on their new working relationship, the obligation on LIV tour players to play a certain number of events should be split between the PGA Tour and the DP Tour.

The issue is, the PGA was already the dominant tour in golf. By a long long way. So, any agreement to have a working relationship with LIV automatically weakens their product. From their point of view. The PGA Tour has events nearly every week in the year. Yes, some of those are pretty low profile, but you will usually get one or 2 big players on those events. If LIV has a dozen or so events a year, they will be played at the same time, at the very least, as those lower profile PGA Tour events. The biggest players will play on LIV and more fans will watch LIV (especially as it is publicly seen as a legitimate tour, and less so as an exhibition). So, at the very least, LIV completely undermines those PGA Tour events. The other concern for the PGA would be that, if LIV really does then kick off and gain lots of support, LIV will get stronger over time, the PGA weaker.

The PGA knows what its effect was on the European Tour. They will be scared to death that LIV does the same thing to them.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

LIV can happily exists and their members can play their events , plus the events on the Asian Tour of which they aligned.

But I don’t believe the people who went to the LIV tour should be allowed to pop back to the PGA or ET to play in the “high profile” events - that imo is a case of just wanting a piece of cake from all the pies.

They have the LIV tour - they made a choice and knew that it would affect the other tours they play on

Rankings - i don’t think they will get rankings until it changes from an invite only to some process that allows people to qualify

Majors - I don’t expect them to change their qualifying process to make it so players can qualify from LIV events

There is nothing stopping LIV from organising golf comps for golfers who want to play in that sort of event - it’s not much different to the European Super League that was started and football fans made their feelings known about that very quickly

Saudi have put a lot of money into it all so they will keep going and it will just be another tour that people will have to buy subscription for

 

[rksquire]

I read that article yesterday and I got the feeling that there was a subtle change of stance from Mr Carter and the BBC. Only a short while ago he was vigorously attacking LIV and Norman. In that article he recognises how it is the PGA Tour that is on the defensive and as your quote shows likens it to what has happened to the European Tour, but now it is without a great deal of support or sympathy.

I've said from the start that the PGA Tour having done to it what they have done to the European Tour and then whining about it is both expected and hypocritical. Suck it up Rory.

I think the change was inevitable; the BBC had provided a leaderboard link to the last tournament and there does now seem to be (in some quarters!) a more balanced view of the PGAT set up (currently), recognition of the hypocrisy of the PGAT 'poaching' of the ETs best players and now playing the victim etc.

I do think the court case is more finely balanced than Monahan is suggesting - his memo's lack clarity and detail and are full of pettiness, and are potentially divisive (assuming a future resolution). Joel Dahmen's pizza tweets singlehandedly proving why the 'defectors' have a case but I doubt he sees the logic of that (ie the original pizza place would still let BDC order a pizza). From the other thread, and a bit of subsequent research, I see the OGWR changes, whilst complicated and beyond me overall, will be providing some of its stats on a round by round basis so it certainly won't preclude LIVs 54 hole format. And I do find it interesting, with it's own chequered history, the influence Augusta National appears to be having on how the Tours, OGWR and players are run.

 

[wjemather]

But I don’t believe the people who went to the LIV tour should be allowed to pop back to the PGA or ET to play in the “high profile” events - that imo is a case of just wanting a piece of cake from all the pies.

Why would it be any different from the European Tour allowing players who have joined the PGA Tour to "pop back" and cherry-pick Rolex Series events (or play other events for big appearance fees)? If tour members fulfil their minimum requirements, who cares where else they are playing.

 

[RRidges]

Interesting article from previous Tour Commissioner here: https://golfweek.usatoday.com/lists/qa-former-pga-tour-commissioner-deane-beman-liv-golf/

 

[Mel Smooth]

Interesting article from previous Tour Commissioner here: https://golfweek.usatoday.com/lists/qa-former-pga-tour-commissioner-deane-beman-liv-golf/

If he thinks Jay Monaghan has done an exemplary job of managing the situation, he needs to go and ask his doctor for stronger meds.


There are people at both ends of the spectrum some who want the PGA as it exists now to be destroyed by LIV, and there are some that want the PGA to derail LIV until it goes away, then there are 95% of people in the middle who either dont care, or want to see a resolution whereby the top players can still compete on their respective tours, and still be able to face each other in certain events.

Unfortunately, Monahan is at one end of the aforementioned spectrum.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Why would it be any different from the European Tour allowing players who have joined the PGA Tour to "pop back" and cherry-pick Rolex Series events (or play other events for big appearance fees)? If tour members fulfil their minimum requirements, who cares where else they are playing.

The PGA and ET both have a working relationship as with other tours. They have a pathway to qualify for both tours and players from both tours are able to play on either tour

Some ET players play a split between the two tours , some come back for their home opens. The players also help boost up the ET.

There is a long standing relationship between the two - and also between the tours and the majors

It’s the same with the others PGA tours around the world.

 

[Mel Smooth]

The PGA and ET both have a working relationship as with other tours. They have a pathway to qualify for both tours and players from both tours are able to play on either tour

Some ET players play a split between the two tours , some come back for their home opens. The players also help boost up the ET.

There is a long standing relationship between the two - and also between the tours and the majors

It’s the same with the others PGA tours around the world.

Lee Westwood not keen on the “relationship”

This is in response to a tweet highlighting the St Jude awards 60 odd points for first place, whereby the ISPS Handa on the DP tour awards 8.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1556973064239419393

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Lee Westwood not keen on the “relationship”

This is in response to a tweet highlighting the St Jude awards 60 odd points for first place, whereby the ISPS Handa on the DP tour awards 8.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1556973064239419393

The same Westwood who had no issues going across to the PGA tour a number of times himself ?‍

And yes the St Jude will have more points than the Handa ?‍ The level of players at St Jude will be higher

When it comes to the PGA at Wentworth it will be rated higher than the PGA event on at the same time

 

[wjemather]

The PGA and ET both have a working relationship as with other tours. They have a pathway to qualify for both tours and players from both tours are able to play on either tour

Some ET players play a split between the two tours , some come back for their home opens. The players also help boost up the ET.

There is a long standing relationship between the two - and also between the tours and the majors

It’s the same with the others PGA tours around the world.

You haven't explained why this should operate any differently with LIV golfers, just asserted what happened before LIV. If they are qualified and meet their minimums, let them play wherever they want.

Anyway, the existing tours' working relationships are only beneficial to one party. The elite European Tour schedule now consists of 2 weeks in the desert in January/February, 2 weeks in GB&I in July, one week in Surrey in September, and 2 weeks in November - all dictated by the PGA Tour, which also successfully relocated the two global WGCs to the US before eventually killing all but the MP off. That really isn't a working relationship, that's a dominant party abusing it's position for it's own benefit.

One possibility, if there was a true partnership, was expansion of the original WGC concept to create a jointly owned elite global tour of a dozen or more tournaments (including and elevating historic events like the Australian and South African Opens), with qualification routes from all the existing top level tours. If that had happened LIV/GN would never have had an opening.

 

[Mel Smooth]

The same Westwood who had no issues going across to the PGA tour a number of times himself ?‍

And yes the St Jude will have more points than the Handa ?‍ The level of players at St Jude will be higher

When it comes to the PGA at Wentworth it will be rated higher than the PGA event on at the same time

Westwood didn't have any input on the vote for changes did he?

Also, he may have gone to the PGA Tour, why wouldn't he, but he's always been around a good number of ET events, supporting the game on his own continent.

I'm glad you mentioned the quality of players at St Jude, comapred to the ISPS, because the exact same argument exists for the last LIV event when the quality of players was higher there, than it was at the Rocket Mortgage Classic, yet you don't want those LIV players getting ANY ranking points whatsoever.

 

[pokerjoke]

If he thinks Jay Monaghan has done an exemplary job of managing the situation, he needs to go and ask his doctor for stronger meds.


There are people at both ends of the spectrum some who want the PGA as it exists now to be destroyed by LIV, and there are some that want the PGA to derail LIV until it goes away, then there are 95% of people in the middle who either dont care, or want to see a resolution whereby the top players can still compete on their respective tours, and still be able to face each other in certain events.

Unfortunately, Monahan is at one end of the aforementioned spectrum.

He will realise as his tour weakens,and it is weakening rapidly,he will need the Liv players.
If he doesn’t then more fool him.
Rumours are abound Matsuama,smith and Leishman to move over soon.
That’s a massive amount of overseas viewers.

 

[Pin-seeker]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1556933378980577281

Seen lots of social media experts saying certain players won’t be joining LIV,only for them to join ?

 

[Springveldt]

Cam Smith trending on Twitter saying that he and Leishman are signing for LIV after the Tour Championship.

He could be world #1 by then.

 

[Mel Smooth]

He will realise as his tour weakens,and it is weakening rapidly,he will need the Liv players.
If he doesn’t then more fool him.
Rumours are abound Matsuama,smith and Leishman to move over soon.
That’s a massive amount of overseas viewers.

The word ‘exodus’ has been used for weeks to predict the situation once the FedEx is finished. Time will tell, but it’s getting increasingly difficult to find people who are firmly on Monahans side regarding the stand off he has created.

 

[ColchesterFC]

The word ‘exodus’ has been used for weeks to predict the situation once the FedEx is finished. Time will tell, but it’s getting increasingly difficult to find people who are firmly on Monahans side regarding the stand off he has created.

But in the article you linked to earlier Greg Norman is quoted as saying they're full for numbers. So either he's lying or the people saying that there will be an exodus are wrong. Both things can't be true.

 

[RichA]

I'm late to this conversation due to lack of interest in pro golf outside of the majors, so this may have already been covered, however...
Surely any litigation will be entirely dependent on any contracts the pros have signed and the terms and conditions of the various competitions, just as they would be for the rest of us if we decided to leave an employer, take on a second job or play in a sports competition for a rival organisation or league.
Has anyone making the various assertions on here seen said contracts or Ts&Cs? If not, isn't this all just pointless conjecture?