LIV Golf

[r0wly86]

Not new by long way, wish I was a lot younger, back when the Euro Tour was stronger as the Australian Tour, and players were not all stuck in the US, always thought that 3 out of 4 Majors in one Country was too much, but that is my opinion.

I funny stat I just read :

Of the last 21 major championships, 9 have been one by current LIV players.

9..!!!

43%.

why last 21?

also irrelevant, the thing that matters is the future

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Not new by long way, wish I was a lot younger, back when the Euro Tour was stronger as the Australian Tour, and players were not all stuck in the US, always thought that 3 out of 4 Majors in one Country was too much, but that is my opinion.

I funny stat I just read :

Of the last 21 major championships, 9 have been one by current LIV players.

9..!!!

43%.

Those majors

4 won by Koepka
2 won by DJ
1 each for Phil Mickleson, Patrick Reed and BDC

The golf tours evolved when the the Telly money came into it and unfortunately events in Australia etc are not on during prime time for either Europe or the US

 

[Depreston]

Is this on this week?

 

[Swango1980]

Not new by long way, wish I was a lot younger, back when the Euro Tour was stronger as the Australian Tour, and players were not all stuck in the US, always thought that 3 out of 4 Majors in one Country was too much, but that is my opinion.

I funny stat I just read :

Of the last 21 major championships, 9 have been one by current LIV players.

9..!!!

43%.

I think it is 9 won in 22, assuming Patrick Reed has confirmed he is going to LIV? Or 10 in 24 (if DJ's win at the US Open in 2016 is counted).

Which were:

Dustin Johnson (World Number 17)
Brooks Koepka x4 (World Number 19)
Bryson DeChambeau (World Number 31)
Patrick Reed (World Number 39)
Sergio Garcia (World Number 63)
Phil Micklelson (World Number 84)

I still think only the top 3 of those players are truly major signings for LIV as it stands, as players who could still truly be thought of as contenders in the biggest golf tournaments going forward, one they get their form and fitness back. The other three are either past it, or in Reed's case, potentially another Hunter Mahan / Jason Dufner type player in decline? And, of those top 3, I think DJ is fairly happy making loads of money now, and just chilling out for the rest of his career. Brooks has all the personality of a pair of beige corduroys. Bryson may be the only personality of those 3, that will generate headlines, and even get haters voicing their opinions on him, which is also good publicity.

 

[Foxholer]

Again, I am staying away from the funding source question and keeping it to the golf side of things. Really not sure that there is a massive difference between either side and it is almost one of those situations where you wish both sides could lose. LIV are using the only weapon that they have (money) to have a shot at being the pre-emminent golfing tour with the existing tours being feeder tours and the source of the players that they offer the big money to. The PGA is using every weapon it has (ranking points and access to the majors) to be the pre-emminent golfing tour with all other tours being feeder tours and ensuring that all of the top golfers play in their event. They are also using money as part of their arsenal to ensure that the top players do not stick around and help grow other world tours.

They are both doing all that they can to achieve global golfing domination whereas as what we need it tours working together (not in the subjogated way that tours outside of the PGA tour appear to be treasted now) to ensure that the best golfers are playing all around the world to help grow the game.

I don't believe ANY tour is hoping to achieve 'global golfing domination' - not even LIV or The PGA Tour! They are simply , and naturally, determined to maintain and, hopefully, grow their separate Tours however they can. Simply by numbers, The PGA Tour will continue to be the dominant tour imo. LIV will continue to grow/evolve, at least for a while, though it might (doubtful imo, but there is history) eventually be deemed another 'bad investment' and fold.

 

[GB72]

I don't believe ANY tour is hoping to achieve 'global golfing domination' - not even LIV or The PGA Tour! They are simply , and naturally, determined to maintain and, hopefully, grow their separate Tours however they can. Simply by numbers, The PGA Tour will continue to be the dominant tour imo. LIV will continue to grow/evolve, at least for a while, though it might (doubtful imo, but there is history) eventually be deemed another 'bad investment' and fold.

I guess that brings about the argument that if you are not looking to see of any competition, why can there not be peaceful coexistence. Why does it have to be all or nothing. Again, may be wrong but I do see this as not just the PGA maintaining its status but also looking to ensure that there is no significant competition and I have little doubt that they would soon try and stamp on it if, for example, the DP tour or the Asia Tour received a massive funding boost and started to attract star names from the PGA Tour. Again, only my feeling, but it always seems to me that the PGA Tour is happy to atract the headline names from other tours but would be far less happy if that happened to them. Not out and out supporting LIV but also do not see the PGA to be the wounded party that they are sometimes made out to be.

 

[rksquire]

The way things are going I'm now starting to think the PGA Tour should have come to the table and negotiated something for the weeks of the 8 tournaments or indeed come to some sort of rising scale agreement (4 tournaments rising to 8 over 3 years for example). I see a lot of the PGA Tour commentary and tactics as being quite hypocritical (PGA Tour: Players who go are only going for the money. We are a not for profit company so can't compete; Also PGA Tour: Exciting news, a shake-up of events with no cut and even more money for our already very well paid players). Tongue in cheek, of course, the PGA Tour is probably the lesser of 2 evils but it is no way an exemplar organisation.

The big loser remains the DP World Tour. The PGA Tour performed it's LIV-like coup years ago and is the only one really in a position to defend itself; LIV is a long way from being a legitimate challenger but it does hold an alternative interest to what's normally on offer along with a list of names that, had they been participating for the DPWT, would be enough to get me to tune in.

Re: Stenson (comment from pages ago) and quandary regarding his Ryder Cup Captaincy - surely some of the LIV guys would have been part of his back room team and Vice Captains? The more I think about it the more it is clearly self preservation. You can have a Premier League (PGA Tour), a Championship (DPWT), a League 1 etc. (Asian Tour, Korn Ferry, Challenge etc.) along with the FA Cup / Cups (Majors) as well as a Champions League with untold riches (LIV). I'm actually worried the energies that are going into opposing the upstart is more unsettling.

 

[Foxholer]

I guess that brings about the argument that if you are not looking to see of any competition, why can there not be peaceful coexistence. Why does it have to be all or nothing. Again, may be wrong but I do see this as not just the PGA maintaining its status but also looking to ensure that there is no significant competition and I have little doubt that they would soon try and stamp on it if, for example, the DP tour or the Asia Tour received a massive funding boost and started to attract star names from the PGA Tour. Again, only my feeling, but it always seems to me that the PGA Tour is happy to atract the headline names from other tours but would be far less happy if that happened to them. Not out and out supporting LIV but also do not see the PGA to be the wounded party that they are sometimes made out to be.

The difference with TPGAT v LIV is simply that TPGAT DOES view LIV's emergence as a 'threat' - and I agree that it is, though maybe not an existential one. It's no different, imo, to a startup company with a new product/idea v a large, existing one. The existing company has to consider whether - and how - to react, otherwise they are not fulfilling their legal obligations. If working with other - non-directly-competing - tours helps any tour, it's worth doing imo. That's an area where the tours are actually different from commercial companies!

 

[GB72]

The difference with TPGAT v LIV is simply that TPGAT DOES view LIV's emergence as a 'threat' - and I agree that it is, though maybe not an existential one. It's no different, imo, to a startup company with a new product/idea v a large, existing one. The existing company has to consider whether - and how - to react, otherwise they are not fulfilling their legal obligations. If working with other - non-directly-competing - tours helps any tour, it's worth doing imo. That's an area where the tours are actually different from commercial companies!

If you are looking at it from a company comparison, how do you view the other world tours who are long stablised businesses who lost all of their top staff members to their direct competitor who continues to grow as they diminish. Perhaps sanctions should be taken against members of other tours who move to the PGA Tour. I just get the feeling that LIV are simply doing what the PGA tour did years ago.

 

[Foxholer]

...
Re: Stenson (comment from pages ago) and quandary regarding his Ryder Cup Captaincy - surely some of the LIV guys would have been part of his back room team and Vice Captains? The more I think about it the more it is clearly self preservation. You can have a Premier League (PGA Tour), a Championship (DPWT), a League 1 etc. (Asian Tour, Korn Ferry, Challenge etc.) along with the FA Cup / Cups (Majors) as well as a Champions League with untold riches (LIV). I'm actually worried the energies that are going into opposing the upstart is more unsettling.

Notwithstanding my own rambling feelings above, your analogy does not match the Golf setup. Champions League might be analogous to the Majors, but LIV is a new interloper for which nothing in the Football setup is analogous - except maybe the US Soccer League.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Imo the LIV Tour is the equivalent of the European Super League where it was all about the money grab and it was irrelevant what the effect was towards the other teams

Where as in this case it’s a new governing body bringing in the money

 

[Deleted member 29109]

Anyone who thinks the Saudis care one bit about golf. Or that Greg Norman isn’t just a bitter and twisted old man trying to get one over on the PGA Tour needs to give their head a wobble.

It’s strange how many people who would generally hate the rich buying their way through life, are supporting what the Saudis are doing with 54 golf.

 

[Foxholer]

If you are looking at it from a company comparison, how do you view the other world tours who are long stablised businesses who lost all of their top staff members to their direct competitor who continues to grow as they diminish. Perhaps sanctions should be taken against members of other tours who move to the PGA Tour. I just get the feeling that LIV are simply doing what the PGA tour did years ago.

The 'like companies' comparison doesn't absolutely match/breaks down somewhat because of the mainly co-operative way Golf is set up. But many aspects do match/have equivalence.
The PGA Tour v LIV Tour actually does have many similarities with competing company analogy as that's actually what is involved. Same applies to LIV v ET. The PGA Tour v ET relationship is more co-operative. And the same applies to PGAT v most other tours that are not actual feeder ones

 

[Foxholer]

Imo the LIV Tour is the equivalent of the European Super League where it was all about the money grab and it was irrelevant what the effect was towards the other teams

Where as in this case it’s a new governing body bringing in the money

Closer, but not 'equivalent' imo. UEFA and FIFA directly oversee football. here is no equivalent in Golf, though R&A and USGA do have some similarities/equivalences in some areas.

 

[GB72]

Imo the LIV Tour is the equivalent of the European Super League where it was all about the money grab and it was irrelevant what the effect was towards the other teams

Where as in this case it’s a new governing body bringing in the money

But surely that analogy has already happened wiht the PGA welcoming the top players from the Euorpean Tour attacted by the prize money on offer and denying fans the chance to watch them in more local events.

 

[GB72]

Anyone who thinks the Saudis care one bit about golf. Or that Greg Norman isn’t just a bitter and twisted old man trying to get one over on the PGA Tour needs to give their head a wobble.

It’s strange how many people who would generally hate the rich buying their way through life, are supporting what the Saudis are doing with 54 golf.

Thing is I am not supporting the LIV Tour in this either but I am also not getting behind the PGA as I think that there are issues there as well hidden behind a veil of respectablity. What I want to see if golf played across the world with everyone able to see the very best peform within reasonable travelling distance with support and encouragement for the best players to play the odd tournament in more far flung nations. No, I do not think that the LIV tour is the answer or even necessarily a desireable entrant into the market but I do like the fact that someone is at least standing up to the PGA and the overly Americacentric golfing calendar.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

But surely that analogy has already happened wiht the PGA welcoming the top players from the Euorpean Tour attacted by the prize money on offer and denying fans the chance to watch them in more local events.

Players don’t just go to the PGA tour for money - playing on the PGA tour gives players better chances for entry into Majors , it also gives them better chances of winning majors

Add in the ability for year round practise etc

The PGA tour wasn’t created purely to get the best players around the world and offer them all the riches on offer

It’s been around since 1929 ( broke away in 1969 )

Let’s be honest all the top Europeans over the last 3/4 decades have had playing rights on the PGA Tour and also the ET - it was prob only monty that didn’t move and that’s prob a big reason why he never got over the major line

What the ET are doing with the PGA tour is trying to get more of the co sanction events and it’s not a surprise that it’s events before the Open

 

[Slab]

Thing is I am not supporting the LIV Tour in this either but I am also not getting behind the PGA as I think that there are issues there as well hidden behind a veil of respectablity. What I want to see if golf played across the world with everyone able to see the very best peform within reasonable travelling distance with support and encouragement for the best players to play the odd tournament in more far flung nations. No, I do not think that the LIV tour is the answer or even necessarily a desireable entrant into the market but I do like the fact that someone is at least standing up to the PGA and the overly Americacentric golfing calendar.

Agreed
Things change and as it was going the pgat was just getting stronger and stronger with very little product from the ‘top table’ tour available for worldwide viewers to watch live
Televised sport has a very short shelf life compared to things like movies etc and it can be measured in just a few days. Golf has an even shorter shelf life that can be measured in hours (who’s watching re-runs of day 1 when day 3 play is underway)

Half the world has to get up/stay up at all kind of weird hours if they want to see these elite players because of the US dominance or catch the (dreadful) production of the ‘highlights’ just showing putt after putt
LIV may not be the answer (probably isn’t) especially if they are just trying to muscle in on US audiences, but if it helps force current tours to consider some changes for the global game then crack on…

At this stage its mostly threats and posturing from both sides so it looks like it will be a while before this runs its course

 

[GB72]

Players don’t just go to the PGA tour for money - playing on the PGA tour gives players better chances for entry into Majors , it also gives them better chances of winning majors

Add in the ability for year round practise etc

The PGA tour wasn’t created purely to get the best players around the world and offer them all the riches on offer

It’s been around since 1929 ( broke away in 1969 )

Let’s be honest all the top Europeans over the last 3/4 decades have had playing rights on the PGA Tour and also the ET - it was prob only monty that didn’t move and that’s prob a big reason why he never got over the major line

What the ET are doing with the PGA tour is trying to get more of the co sanction events and it’s not a surprise that it’s events before the Open

Still does not change the argument, players leaving their home tours to play on the PGA to the detriment of their fans who need to travel to the states to seem them. Plus what the PGA Tour is now and what is was then do not need to be the same thing. Plus not so sure that as many Europeans would up and move to the US if there wasn't a stack of cash to be won each week.

Simple solution, a fairer distribution of ranking points to allow all global tours to flourish and produce major competitors.

As for co-sanctioned events, guessing those are the ones that the bigger named Americans would enter anyway as Open practice so, rather than letting them play on a European Tour event, they have to have their name in the mix by co-sanctioning, by making it clear that he PGA Tour players are only there with their permission.

You are all in for supporting the PGA Tour, I get it and that is anyone's perogative. I just see them differently, rightly or wrongly, and suspect that their cordial relationship with other global tours is due to their dominant position and due to the significance of The Open in the golf calendar. Take away The Open and I could seem them quite happily restricting all member golfing activities to the US only.

 

[Foxholer]

Still does not change the argument, players leaving their home tours to play on the PGA to the detriment of their fans who need to travel to the states to seem them. Plus what the PGA Tour is now and what is was then do not need to be the same thing. Plus not so sure that as many Europeans would up and move to the US if there wasn't a stack of cash to be won each week.

Simple solution, a fairer distribution of ranking points to allow all global tours to flourish and produce major competitors.

As for co-sanctioned events, guessing those are the ones that the bigger named Americans would enter anyway as Open practice so, rather than letting them play on a European Tour event, they have to have their name in the mix by co-sanctioning, by making it clear that he PGA Tour players are only there with their permission.

You are all in for supporting the PGA Tour, I get it and that is anyone's perogative. I just see them differently, rightly or wrongly, and suspect that their cordial relationship with other global tours is due to their dominant position and due to the significance of The Open in the golf calendar. Take away The Open and I could seem them quite happily restricting all member golfing activities to the US only.

The highlighted word doesn't belong imo.
Patrick Reed, not my favourite person but..., played on both TPGAT and ET. I doubt he actually asked permission.