I suck from 130 yds and in....

[G_Mulligan]

Check the PGA tour website, you might be surprised

Just been having a look and I see nothing to change my mind regarding my post. Firstly the 50-75 are a very small sample size with few players having more than 3-4 attempts in each category. 75-100 is a little bigger in sample size but still far from ideal. They are just averages their is no mean score or standard deviation which may highlight if the players are widely dispersed or most are closely grouped with the odd howler thrown in. Anything outside of this distance is not really relevant to the argument as this would be a full swing even if it is with a wedge (for the pros) which plenty of others (myself included) have said that 30 foot and aiming for the middle of the green is a very good result.

It is also worth noting that Michelson is waaay down the rankings in both of these categories 126th and 168th respectively the top 10 are all within 12 foot from this distance and vary between 1 under and 8 under par with players 2, 3, and 4 all being 8 under par for the relatively small amount of attempts (11-17)

 

[MashieNiblick]

I cant help but be very dubious about these stats. A player as good a Mickelson regularly missing the flag by 16 foot from 75 yards seems highly unlikely. Averages can be horribly skewed by just a few outliers. Lets say he hits 5 pitches within 12 foot averaging around 8 feet but then one catches a horrible slope and ends up 50 foot from the flag that one pitch throws the average up to 14 foot. His scoring however would be more like 4/5 one putt for birdie and one mickelson special up and down for par and he is 4 under par.

You are right but that doesn't make the stats wrong. They are just telling a different story which is that although Phil might be able to land the ball nearer the hole than that more often that not, the nature of golf determines that there will also be many times when due to a bad swing or error of judgement, or the contours of the green, or other playing conditions he won't. Think of Tom Watson's fabulous approach to the 18th at Turnberry in that heartbreaking 2009 Open - faultless execution, awful outcome.

That is why imho framing the problem in terms of hitting the ball "nearer the flag" from 130 yards is perhaps not the right approach (pun intended!). That outcome depends on many factors and indicates a very high level of ambition for a mid handicapper, given what the stats say about what the best players in the world actually achieve (bear in mind the stats measure every shot - not like the TV coverage which tends to focus on the good ones!). Getting the ball near the flag requires a range of skills including controlling ball flight in different playing conditions, reading the contours of the green, shot selection etc.

I think it is better to focus on seeing the issue as a tendency to pull or slice short irons. That then frames the problem as a technical swing issue. Sort that out then just aim for the middle of the green and club for front, middle or back. I had a similar problem. Lesson with the pro sorted it out. Didn't require a lot, just a few tweaks with set up and swing.

I don't really start thinking about aiming at the flag until I'm inside 100 yards and even then I'm still mostly looking at what the safe shot is. Only from about 60 yards am I thinking I want to get in close. That is really a different area of the game though.

 

[standrew]

Mickelson is clearly yipping so badly. Ive been watching him in the last few tourneys and you can clearly see it. Im sure his chipping is also being affected.

 

[G_Mulligan]

You are right but that doesn't make the stats wrong. They are just telling a different story which is that although Phil might be able to land the ball nearer the hole than that more often that not, the nature of golf determines that there will also be many times when due to a bad swing or error of judgement, or the contours of the green, or other playing conditions he won't. Think of Tom Watson's fabulous approach to the 18th at Turnberry in that heartbreaking 2009 Open - faultless execution, awful outcome.

That is why imho framing the problem in terms of hitting the ball "nearer the flag" from 130 yards is perhaps not the right approach (pun intended!). That outcome depends on many factors and indicates a very high level of ambition for a mid handicapper, given what the stats say about what the best players in the world actually achieve (bear in mind the stats measure every shot - not like the TV coverage which tends to focus on the good ones!). Getting the ball near the flag requires a range of skills including controlling ball flight in different playing conditions, reading the contours of the green, shot selection etc.

I think it is better to focus on seeing the issue as a tendency to pull or slice short irons. That then frames the problem as a technical swing issue. Sort that out then just aim for the middle of the green and club for front, middle or back. I had a similar problem. Lesson with the pro sorted it out. Didn't require a lot, just a few tweaks with set up and swing.

I don't really start thinking about aiming at the flag until I'm inside 100 yards and even then I'm still mostly looking at what the safe shot is. Only from about 60 yards am I thinking I want to get in close. That is really a different area of the game though.

I think we are just going over old ground now. The 130 yard element of the OP seems to be what is being focused upon. The problem is that he is them same distance from the flag whether he is 60-130 yards. I again concede that 110-130 is a different matter all together but with a wedge inside 100 I am looking to score and that means getting within 10-12 feet.

Another point is this. Lets rule out the sucker pins tight to the fringe of tucked behind water/bunkers as this is course management and should probably be avoided. For the rest of the time with reasonable flag positions and compare missing the flag and missing the centre of the green by an average of say 10 foot. Aim at the middle of the green say 20 foot from the flag and miss by 10 foot and you are 80% of the time 30 foot from the flag. Aim at the flag and miss by 10 foot and you are 10 foot from the flag. I know it is a very simplistic view of things but to me it makes perfect sense. Again I will say this is a close approach with a wedge not a full swing outside of 100 yards where the margins of error are much larger and more punishing.

I know there are so many variables to this type of shot but the centre of the green has the same set of variables much of the time (again excluding sucker flags) I just don't think aiming for the middle or accepting his current ability is good for his current level, is indicative of improving or maximising scoring opportunities.

I fully agree that there is a technical issue and I think that is what the first half of this thread concentrated on. However once this is sorted out aiming for the middle from inside 100 yards is not the way to go.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

I think we are just going over old ground now. The 130 yard element of the OP seems to be what is being focused upon. The problem is that he is them same distance from the flag whether he is 60-130 yards. I again concede that 110-130 is a different matter all together but with a wedge inside 100 I am looking to score and that means getting within 10-12 feet.

Another point is this. Lets rule out the sucker pins tight to the fringe of tucked behind water/bunkers as this is course management and should probably be avoided. For the rest of the time with reasonable flag positions and compare missing the flag and missing the centre of the green by an average of say 10 foot. Aim at the middle of the green say 20 foot from the flag and miss by 10 foot and you are 80% of the time 30 foot from the flag. Aim at the flag and miss by 10 foot and you are 10 foot from the flag. I know it is a very simplistic view of things but to me it makes perfect sense. Again I will say this is a close approach with a wedge not a full swing outside of 100 yards where the margins of error are much larger and more punishing.

I know there are so many variables to this type of shot but the centre of the green has the same set of variables much of the time (again excluding sucker flags) I just don't think aiming for the middle or accepting his current ability is good for his current level, is indicative of improving or maximising scoring opportunities.

I fully agree that there is a technical issue and I think that is what the first half of this thread concentrated on. However once this is sorted out aiming for the middle from inside 100 yards is not the way to go.

If you go for the centre of the green and miss by 10 feet, you won't always be further from the hole.

 

[G_Mulligan]

If you go for the centre of the green and miss by 10 feet, you won't always be further from the hole.

no, which is why I say 80%. 10% you may be 15-20 foot 10% you will be lucky enough to miss towards the flag and be 10 foot away. Again this is a very simplistic approach but it was used to highlight a point I feel is valid and worth considering.

 

[garyinderry]

as soon as the course dries out, go out and learn how to run in a 7/8 or 9 iron. it is very easy to do. this should see you finding more greens and once you have worked out what club and backswing distance goes 100 yards for example you can start to dial these in.

some of the older gentlemen up and down the country are like Jedis when playing this shot.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

no, which is why I say 80%. 10% you may be 15-20 foot 10% you will be lucky enough to miss towards the flag and be 10 foot away. Again this is a very simplistic approach but it was used to highlight a point I feel is valid and worth considering.

If you're going for the middle of the green and you miss, why would 80% be further from the hole, that would be extremely unlucky.

 

[G_Mulligan]

If you're going for the middle of the green and you miss, why would 80% be further from the hole, that would be extremely unlucky.

I'm sorry I don't know the exact amounts it probably needs calculations requiring Pi or trigonometry or something. But I think it's in that area. If you think of a compass and the flag is say 20 foot directly west, then the vast majority of the other compass points east, south east, south, west south etc. etc., are varying distances away from the flag with just a small minority east, north east, south east, in the direction of the flag.

 

[garyinderry]

pelz claims its distance control players struggle with rather than direction with a wedge / short iron. in most cases this is correct I find.

 

[cookelad]

16ft that only about 5-6 paces from the flag (depending on your stride) and 10-12 ft is what 4-5 paces not really a massive difference and as has been said over 4 shots a single wayward shot is going to have a big influence on the average.

I'd take the centre of the green in regulation on every hole, if we could all do it every time a lot of us would be playing off plus handicaps!

 

[G_Mulligan]

16ft that only about 5-6 paces from the flag (depending on your stride) and 10-12 ft is what 4-5 paces not really a massive difference and as has been said over 4 shots a single wayward shot is going to have a big influence on the average.

I'd take the centre of the green in regulation on every hole, if we could all do it every time a lot of us would be playing off plus handicaps!

It is in terms of putt conversion rate if Pelz's stats are to be believed. Within 2 foot is pretty much a gimme 100% then 3-10 foot is a sliding scale from 90-50% outside of 12 foot it drops to 10% (if memory serves) and therefore more often a 2 putt from anywhere outside this distance.

 

[Sweep]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this (not read the whole thread) but have a look at Dave's Pelz Short Game Bible. It will help. Like others have mentioned, he goes through the clock face method, but very importantly instructs to go to a full finish with the arms,mnot through the same as you go back. This makes a big difference to consistency and prevents deceleration! Do what he says and learn your distances. From 17 down, you have to start working harder to reduce your handicap and this is a good example. Like others have said though, I think your expectations sound very high. Don't be too hard on yourself (shame I don't practice what I preach lol) and the game will become easier. Good luck.

 

[Simbo]

I cant help but be very dubious about these stats. A player as good a Mickelson regularly missing the flag by 16 foot from 75 yards seems highly unlikely. Averages can be horribly skewed by just a few outliers. Lets say he hits 5 pitches within 12 foot averaging around 8 feet but then one catches a horrible slope and ends up 50 foot from the flag that one pitch throws the average up to 14 foot. His scoring however would be more like 4/5 one putt for birdie and one mickelson special up and down for par and he is 4 under par.

That's why they are called averages, you have to allow for the howlers that you are going to hit.


Back to the OP, how close do you think you should be hitting it from 75 yards??
If I were you I'd just go out and practice, 12 balls from 40, 12 from 50, so on and so forth right up to 120 yards, once you have done that, go for 2 from each distance and try to get it in the hole in 3.

 

[G_Mulligan]

That's why they are called averages, you have to allow for the howlers that you are going to hit.

No, that is entirely incorrect. Any extreme outliers should be highlighted and commented upon or even removed from the results altogether when compiling statistics or they can completely skew the results. This is not a proper academic study and therefore this would not happen and the results can be argued to be entirely misleading especially when it is from a sample size of 4.

When working out your yardages do you include the one shot you catch fat or the one you catch really thin and use these when deciding how far you hit a club on average? No, of course not. This would skew the actual number that you usually hit a certain club when making a normal contact and would lead to nothing more than constantly under or over clubbing.

 

[Dave B]

If we could all dial in from 150 yds we'd be superb however the reality is you are still looking at 3 shots if you are honest and realistic about it. Ask any pro where they are least likely to score and most will answer par 3's.

Most mid-high handicappers lose shots in two distinct places, off the tee and on the green. If you can cut out getting into trouble off the tee and can two putt with the odd one putt you're half way to having a good handicap.

 

[mjyounie]

Played yesterday to 17.... handicap had come down 7 shots in a year. But my accuracy really really sucks when going into flags.... just hitting greens isn't good enough, I need to step up my game and have some 1 putt attempts.

my distance control is ok, but could be better. But what I find more than anything is that suddenly when going for a flag I'll either pull the ball or hit a ridiculous slice. Yes I hit greens.... but need to be better.
what did you do to improve?

How is your alignment? Do you pick a spot between the ball and hole to ensure your alignment is correct?

Biggest point of all is to just accept that you are not going to hit them all close (not even the best players in the world do!) and enjoy the challenge of pinning one!

 

[Deleted member 18121]

Back to the OP, how close do you think you should be hitting it from 75 yards??
If I were you I'd just go out and practice, 12 balls from 40, 12 from 50, so on and so forth right up to 120 yards, once you have done that, go for 2 from each distance and try to get it in the hole in 3.

from 75 yards I'd like to think within 15 feet.... but for me it's more about getting the line, it really irritates me when I take aim and don't get anywhere near it, although my distance was good.

How is your alignment? Do you pick a spot between the ball and hole to ensure your alignment is correct?

Biggest point of all is to just accept that you are not going to hit them all close (not even the best players in the world do!) and enjoy the challenge of pinning one!

I've tried picking something to aim over, sometimes it works sometimes not....

I don't think I'll ever hit them all close... like I say it's not about landing ever shot into a green within 20 feet. But it annoys me when my aim is so poor... I at least want to be on the right section of green, not putting across the whole width!

I went to the range today and hit a lot of shots. I tried the extra club with an easier swing and had some success....just need to relearn my distances using that idea.

 

[Simbo]

No, that is entirely incorrect. Any extreme outliers should be highlighted and commented upon or even removed from the results altogether when compiling statistics or they can completely skew the results. This is not a proper academic study and therefore this would not happen and the results can be argued to be entirely misleading especially when it is from a sample size of 4.

When working out your yardages do you include the one shot you catch fat or the one you catch really thin and use these when deciding how far you hit a club on average? No, of course not. This would skew the actual number that you usually hit a certain club when making a normal contact and would lead to nothing more than constantly under or over clubbing.

In practice yes that's entirely true, in reality though there's no hiding place on the course and ALL shots have to be accounted for, you can shank one into the trees and say "that's an outlier, let's not count that" that's why mickelsons averages look high, or any other pro for that matter.

OP- is that a 15 foot radius around the flag or 15 foot from the pin?? (30ft radius)

 

[Deleted member 18121]

In practice yes that's entirely true, in reality though there's no hiding place on the course and ALL shots have to be accounted for, you can shank one into the trees and say "that's an outlier, let's not count that" that's why mickelsons averages look high, or any other pro for that matter.

OP- is that a 15 foot radius around the flag or 15 foot from the pin?? (30ft radius)

30 ft radius