I Know it is Tradition but it is Still Annoying

[chrisd]

Not for me anyway Chris , id give people i dont know the benifit of the doubt & i definatly would not disrespect them , but to me respect is earned by your actions .. there is a difference between showing respect to someone & having respect for some one , showing respect is a reflection of you , earning respect is a reflection of them ..

Treat people how you want Blade but, for me, that quote is a very sad indictment of the direction this country seems to be going.

You probably detect that I am right behind Hobbit with his views but I didn't want to come out and say it as I am trying to earn the respect of forum members - how long will it take I wonder??


Chris

 

[bladeplayer]

Bladeplayer, you talk about earning respect. Does the Captain's previous years of hard work not earn respect?
He's not a here today, gone tomorrow politician. He will almost certainly done years of service for the club, through choice and FOC, and he doesn't do it in the expectation of anything in return. He does it because he wants to, because he cares about the club AND by virtue of that the members too. As to your comment about if you let him through you'll be in breach of the rules of golf...... read all what I posted originally. A good Captain, IMO, won't barge through with, "sorry gents but its my right..." A good Captain will decline the offer and thank the member(s) for recognising the office and traditions of the club. Time is a precious commodity to everyone, and a Captain needs to understand that many members have commitments at home, or elsewhere, and not spoil a member's round before its even started.



QUOTE]The girl running the shop for years , previous captains . previous & present committe members we have retired members who all do as much if not more ? do i let them all go ?? To quote you if i can please mate "he doesn't do it in the expectation of anything in return. He does it because he wants to, because he cares about the club AND by virtue of that the members too. " seemingly the guy in the OP wants to barge through when he wants to in return .. if you were the captain & cared about your members would you barge past & play befor them? Also if you read my post earlier (number 10 or 11 i think) i mentioned if the captain had a word by himself that he would like to play through most members would oblige , can i just clarify id have no problem obliging anyone if i was asked properly , i would have a problem with been bullied off the tee ..

 

[Dodger]

Great discussion men.We all have a views and these should be respected,some of us agree with it some think it promotes elitism.

It is my view that it is a strange ruling to have within a club and IMO a very,very unnecessary one to have and I for one am glad either of my clubs do not have such a ruling and that I have not come across such a strange ruling in 30 years of playing the game.

It is very outdated and archaic and reeks of all that is wrong within golf,let's rid the game of such archaic rulings and take the game into the next century.

 

[bladeplayer]

Treat people how you want Blade but, for me, that quote is a very sad indictment of the direction this country seems to be going.



Chris

I would give people i dont know the benifit of doubt & wouldnt disrespect them.. is a sad indictment.. explain please

 

[chrisd]

This is going on forever but I do think that a point is being missed here.

No one has condoned a Captain barging to the front of the tee and demanding the right to go off, in fact very much the opposite. What we are saying is that a lot of clubs bestow upon the Captain, the right to be allowed to have the honour on the first tee if there are members waiting to tee off, but, this right would obviously not exist in clubs that have tee times or during competitions.

Where this rule/tradition exists most good Captains would never ask to go throgh but would be asked by the next guys waiting to tee off if he wished to play first - he may accept or decline. I have been on the tee when the group waiting to go were not aware of who the Captain was and other members discretely had a word in their ear and they gladly moved aside. I have also invited Captains to have the tee and they have declined.

If the Captain has to ask then I fear that the tradition is, in fact, no longer a tradition!

Chris

 

[chrisd]

I would give people i dont knowthe benifit of doubt & wouldnt disrespect them.. is a sad indictment.. explain please

I am older than you Blade, when I grew up you were taught to respect people. Teachers, policemen, in fact everyone. We didn't give them the benefit of the doubt, there would be no doubt, until something occured that raised doubt. Basically it's a question of which direction you come from.

We started from the end that everyone should be respected and you start from the end that they have to firstly earn your respect - maybe in the end we come to the same conclusion!


Chris

 

[bladeplayer]

I am older than you Blade, when I grew up you were taught to respect people. Teachers, policemen, in fact everyone. We didn't give them the benefit of the doubt, there would be no doubt, until something occured that raised doubt. Basically it's a question of which direction you come from.

We started from the end that everyone should be respected and you start from the end that they have to firstly earn your respect - maybe in the end we come to the same conclusion!


Chris

Thats accepted mate , good discussion in general this one ..

 

[chrisd]

Thats accepted mate , good discussion in general this one ..

We've met in the middle Blade - how good is that!

Now where's The craw?


CHris

 

[GB72]

To be fair, we were not given the chance to invite him through as he told us of his intentions before anyone could say anything. That said, I would not have offered as I have never seen it done before and I have been on the tee with a number of past captains.

I am not sure how others view the position but I can only draw from my experience of running rugby teams at committee level in the past and from my brother running his local cricket club. In both of those positions, we gave up our time for free, spent money and in many ways carried out duties similar to a golf club captain. The difference is that we were expected to put our own interests behind those of the players at all times. This would mean that if there were too many palyers in our positions, we would be the first to put ourselves on the subs bench as we knew that we would still be here next year but a player who did not get on the pitch may not. People describe taking the burden of office and that is my understanding of it.

Again, not going back into the argument of whether the captain could do what he did (he clearly has the right) but whether he should.

Let us change the scenario a bit, if the captain had been standing on the tee with the rest of us, realised the time and said look I am short on time so I am looking to use my privelege then that would be one matter. As it happened, he turned up with his 4 ball, put his shoes on and headed up to the tee. Now, if I were short on time and know that there is no booking system then I would turn up early to allow for a queue. As such, the intention was never to queue but rather to head to the front. Again, no argument as to whether he could do this as the has the right, but whether he should.

 

[chrisd]

Let us change the scenario a bit, if the captain had been standing on the tee with the rest of us, realised the time and said look I am short on time so I am looking to use my privelege then that would be one matter. As it happened, he turned up with his 4 ball, put his shoes on and headed up to the tee. Now, if I were short on time and know that there is no booking system then I would turn up early to allow for a queue. As such, the intention was never to queue but rather to head to the front. Again, no argument as to whether he could do this as the has the right, but whether he should.

My guess is that he always would expect to walk to the front of the queue so the question as to whether he should, probably never entered his mind. If the rule/tradition of the club allowed this then the only real critism is his manner.


Chris

 

[bladeplayer]

We've met in the middle Blade - how good is that!

Now where's The craw?


CHris

Standing behind the captain waiting to reply ..

 

[chrisd]

Standing behind the captain waiting to reply ..

And wondering whether ettiquette allows him to use a wedge to disembowel the Captain or if he should use a putter?


Chris

 

[Hobbit]

What right does a captain have to do this Hobbit? Answer me that???

That depends on the club he is Captain of. Some do it it, and some don't. At my club the Captain wasn't supposed to go to the bar during his year in office. I've seen a Captain barely buy a drink all year, and I've seen many Captains pass money to others for them to go to the bar for him. It was a tradition I chose to ignore, and when I went to the bar I was often offered first place in the queue ahead of anyone else waiting - I waited my turn.

What right does he have to have a car park space?

Its a tradition that's evolved down the years and has become part of (some) club's fabric. Is it right? That's for the members to decide. Is it right for a member to chose to ignore that tradition? NO! As I've already said, change it by due process. Paying your subs doesn't give anyone the right to pick and chose what rules they're willing to observe but it does give them the right to question them and seek to change them via the appropriate channels within the club.

 

[Jonny]

And wondering whether ettiquette allows him to use a wedge to disembowel the Captain or if he should use a putter?


Chris

I would say it depends upon the amount of bounce and whether or not the putter is heel or centre shafted as there are probably rules about what club you are allowed to use in such circumstances.

 

[thecraw]

That depends on the club he is Captain of. Some do it it, and some don't. At my club the Captain wasn't supposed to go to the bar during his year in office. I've seen a Captain barely buy a drink all year, and I've seen many Captains pass money to others for them to go to the bar for him. It was a tradition I chose to ignore, and when I went to the bar I was often offered first place in the queue ahead of anyone else waiting - I waited my turn.

What right does he have to have a car park space?

Its a tradition that's evolved down the years and has become part of (some) club's fabric. Is it right? That's for the members to decide. Is it right for a member to chose to ignore that tradition? NO! As I've already said, change it by due process. Paying your subs doesn't give anyone the right to pick and chose what rules they're willing to observe but it does give them the right to question them and seek to change them via the appropriate channels within the club.

Well actually it is my right to ignore that traditon and as you point out its my right to challenge it!

This is where your stuck in your ways, you seem to think tradition means its correct and has to be done that way as its the way its always been done. Codswallop.

Look at Turnberry these days. I can play my golf, walk into the clubhouse in my spikes, waterproofs still on, hat on my head, wander upstairs and sit and have a meal without even changing! 20 years ago, possibly even 10 years ago you'd have been banned for life for such behaviour!

What's your opinion on women now having equal rights, paying equal fees? Lets face it, tradition has it that golf is a man's game, clubs were run by men for the men, women were an after thought where they could play when the men dictated.

Glad you outed yourself as an ex-captain although I'd already used my detective skills to figure that out. Sadly its people like you that are keeping golf in the dark ages. Golf has to be dragged into the modern era, some clubs are better than others in adapting and recognising this, ie Turnberry. Thankfully I'm a member of a forward thinking club. Guess what, I can now wear a pair of denim jeans in the clubhouse if I so choose while having a pint and watching Sky TV. You enjoy your smoking jacket and tie, port and brandy and hold onto your traditions like crawling up the captains backside. Its outdated and pathetic.

Priority on the first tee. LOL!

 

[chrisd]

whether or not the putter is heel or centre shafted

Well it's clearly going to be centre shafted - is there any other way?


Chrsi

 

[chrisd]

Well actually it is my right to ignore that traditon and as you point out its my right to challenge it!

This is where your stuck in your ways, you seem to think tradition means its correct and has to be done that way as its the way its always been done. Codswallop.

Look at Turnberry these days. I can play my golf, walk into the clubhouse in my spikes, waterproofs still on, hat on my head, wander upstairs and sit and have a meal without even changing! 20 years ago, possibly even 10 years ago you'd have been banned for life for such behaviour!

What's your opinion on women now having equal rights, paying equal fees? Lets face it, tradition has it that golf is a man's game, clubs were run by men for the men, women were an after thought where they could play when the men dictated.

Glad you outed yourself as an ex-captain although I'd already used my detective skills to figure that out. Sadly its people like you that are keeping golf in the dark ages. Golf has to be dragged into the modern era, some clubs are better than others in adapting and recognising this, ie Turnberry. Thankfully I'm a member of a forward thinking club. Guess what, I can now wear a pair of denim jeans in the clubhouse if I so choose while having a pint and watching Sky TV. You enjoy your smoking jacket and tie, port and brandy and hold onto your traditions like crawling up the captains backside. Its outdated and pathetic.

Priority on the first tee. LOL!

Long may you enjoy these new found freedoms!


Chris

 

[thecraw]

Long may you enjoy these new found freedoms!


Chris

That was aimed at the organ grinder, not the monkey!

 

[Dodger]

Well actually it is my right to ignore that traditon and as you point out its my right to challenge it!

This is where your stuck in your ways, you seem to think tradition means its correct and has to be done that way as its the way its always been done. Codswallop.

Look at Turnberry these days. I can play my golf, walk into the clubhouse in my spikes, waterproofs still on, hat on my head, wander upstairs and sit and have a meal without even changing! 20 years ago, possibly even 10 years ago you'd have been banned for life for such behaviour!

What's your opinion on women now having equal rights, paying equal fees? Lets face it, tradition has it that golf is a man's game, clubs were run by men for the men, women were an after thought where they could play when the men dictated.

Glad you outed yourself as an ex-captain although I'd already used my detective skills to figure that out. Sadly its people like you that are keeping golf in the dark ages. Golf has to be dragged into the modern era, some clubs are better than others in adapting and recognising this, ie Turnberry. Thankfully I'm a member of a forward thinking club. Guess what, I can now wear a pair of denim jeans in the clubhouse if I so choose while having a pint and watching Sky TV. You enjoy your smoking jacket and tie, port and brandy and hold onto your traditions like crawling up the captains backside. Its outdated and pathetic.

Priority on the first tee. LOL!

Personally Craw I could not think of anything worse than being a member of a club like that where these crusty outdated traditions are upheld and thankfully I am not.I am all for upholding traditions of the game but not ridiculous,outdated ones that have been around since Major Farquarson and his pink gin brigade were in charge.

I think that down south there are many clubs that still lean toward the old school style attitude and that is their choice but in my opinion,as in yours,golf needs to in general drag itself into the next century and rid itself of the things that see it continue to be perceived as an elitist sport played by stuffy old men.

Thankfully this attitude is less prevalent up here.

I have often wondered what I would do if I were offered a job in such an establishment though......I really do not think I could or if I did I don't think I could last longer than a month!

 

[chrisd]

That was aimed at the organ grinder, not the monkey!

I just wonder whether the place will feel the same when the members start wearing a string vest, cargo shorts halfway down the calf, bellowing down the mobile phone and swilling pints of larger on the tee - and god knows what the male members will be like!


Chris