Handicap manipulation - how to address

[jim8flog]

Use the iG app…I guess it synchs fully with our iG implementation at the club.

Or use the EG app.

 

[D-S]

Or use the EG app.

Apparently SILH’s club is not allowing members to use the EG App at away clubs, thereby not allowing members to submit away cards at all as you can’t use your IG App to do this.

 

[Colin L]

Apparently SILH’s club is not allowing members to use the EG App at away clubs, thereby not allowing members to submit away cards at all as you can’t use your IG App to do this.

How can a club stop a player from submitting away scores? It does not have the authority to do so. I don 't know the EG set-up, but a club has no involvement in a players submitting a score directly through the Scottish Golf app. I would expect it to be the same in England.

 

[Colin L]

So if 20,000 biased opinions are easily dismissed in favour of 1 supposed unbiased opinion, how can we use any statistics to back up our argument.
What conclusion would you come to if, in a discussion, 10 Cat I golfers said WHS is bad and 100 Cat III golfers said it was good?

None at all, Bob, but I would want to know on what basis each group had formed its opinion.

 

[D-S]

How can a club stop a player from submitting away scores? It does not have the authority to do so. I don 't know the EG set-up, but a club has no involvement in a players submitting a score directly through the Scottish Golf app. I would expect it to be the same in England.

They shouldn't but this is what SILH said -
"We are doing something…apparently GP cards entered using the MyEG app do not show on a players record in iG (the system my club uses) and so the club has issues monitoring number of competition rounds in current 20 (there being a criteria for entry around that for some comps). These rounds are included in a players WHS HI calc, they just don’t show on iG - apparently. We are requesting (nicely) that members do not use the MyEG app for recording GP rounds, instead use the iG app or if poss a home clubhouse terminal."

 

[wjemather]

I wonder what national analysis of the average lapsed time of the "last 20" would show?

I'm seeing such a diversity of behaviours and number of cards entered, I couldn't guess with any certainty.

Regardless, my feeling is that whs is more fluid and hence more "current form" indicative.

My gut feel is different from yours about how many cards go in. But it's only gut feel and I play with folk who play at least 3 times a week

But as you say, it depends on the lapsed time between card 1 and card 20, which will vary greatly across golfers.

On reflection the correct answer about whether whs is "current form" or "demonstrated ability" might be, "it depends!"

There's no "most recent 20 timespan" report available, but we can look at the number of scores submitted over a period of time.

For our club, from 500 current male members...

...over the last 12 months:

• 300 have submitted fewer than 20 scores
• 200 have submitted 10 scores or fewer
• 45 have submitted no scores at all
• 20 have submitted 50 or more scores

...over the last 24 months:

• 200 have submitted fewer than 20 scores
• 120 have submitted 10 scores or fewer
• 20 have submitted no scores at all
• 115 have submitted 50 or more scores
• 15 have submitted over 100 scores

I've looked at the numbers for a couple of other clubs in the county and they're comparable.

 

[Thintowin]

How can a club stop a player from submitting away scores? It does not have the authority to do so. I don 't know the EG set-up, but a club has no involvement in a players submitting a score directly through the Scottish Golf app. I would expect it to be the same in England.

A club's council/committee is answerable only to its membership. The primary objective of a club is to provide golf, and more specifically competitive golf, for its membership.

Perhaps this club's members want to retain their competitions' credibility and feel WHS, as you see it, doesn't do that. Respect for that club, many more to follow methinks.

 

[rulefan]

A club's council/committee is answerable only to its membership. The primary objective of a club is to provide golf, and more specifically competitive golf, for its membership.

Perhaps this club's members want to retain their competitions' credibility and feel WHS, as you see it, doesn't do that. Respect for that club, many more to follow methinks.

Not so. With regards to the obligations required by using the WHS :

1.3(ii) Golf Club/Handicap Committee
l A golf club is affiliated to its Authorized Association and is responsible for ensuring the Handicap Index of those members who have designated it to
be their home club is administered in accordance with the requirements of the Rules of Handicapping.
l A Handicap Committee is established by a golf club and is responsible for ensuring compliance with the golf club’s specified obligations and
responsibilities under the Rules of Handicapping.

Also see Appendix A

 

[Thintowin]

Not so. With regards to the obligations required by using the WHS :

1.3(ii) Golf Club/Handicap Committee
l A golf club is affiliated to its Authorized Association and is responsible for ensuring the Handicap Index of those members who have designated it to
be their home club is administered in accordance with the requirements of the Rules of Handicapping.
l A Handicap Committee is established by a golf club and is responsible for ensuring compliance with the golf club’s specified obligations and
responsibilities under the Rules of Handicapping.

Also see Appendix A

If a system isn't working for a club it's natural that they will make it work as best they can. If enough of the membership don't want it they could even drop their affiliation. The vaste majority of club golf is played weekly on the same patch of land between the same people. The only thing that matters to many is the integrity of those competitions.

 

[IanM]

I've looked at the numbers for a couple of other clubs in the county and they're comparable.

That's really interesting, and not actually what I'd have expected.

 

[D-S]

If a system isn't working for a club it's natural that they will make it work as best they can. If enough of the membership don't want it they could even drop their affiliation. The vaste majority of club golf is played weekly on the same patch of land between the same people. The only thing that matters to many is the integrity of those competitions.

If your club and everyone you know is so up in arms and so anti WHS, then why are you still affiliated?

If the overwhelming majority people are so upset it should be easy to get through and it will save your members money.

If this is the case at clubs up and down the land surely many will have disaffiliated by now.

 

[rulefan]

If enough of the membership don't want it they could even drop their affiliation.

Do you believe there is enough support in clubs for this to happen?

 

[Thintowin]

If your club and everyone you know is so up in arms and so anti WHS, then why are you still affiliated?

If the overwhelming majority people are so upset it should be easy to get through and it will save your members money.

If this is the case at clubs up and down the land surely many will have disaffiliated by now.

Perhaps there is hope, at least for now, that WHS will be fixed. I wouldn't bother making my protests if I had lost that hope.

 

[Thintowin]

Do you believe there is enough support in clubs for this to happen?

I think it is a possibility. At least it wouldn't surprise me. It could even be a tactic to get new members. There is a club near me that is struggling for members. If they were to drop their affiliation and run their competitions off a club handicap based on UHS I know a lot of people who would fancy joining. They may well keep their existing membership also and feed their cards into WHS anyway.

Let's not get to this point, but it is possible.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

As you are unable to enter scores from the IG App from away clubs (as doublebogey7 correctly says) the club is effectively banning players from entering scores from away clubs, if informed your County would not be happy.

I will check with club. The clubs issue is, I believe, one of visibility in iG of GP rounds members play away from home and that are input using MyEG - this visibility issue causes problems when it comes to determining whether or not a members record satisfies the criteria the club sets for entry into some competitions.

As far as compliance with WHS…I am confident that my club makes every effort to be as compliant as it possibly can - if what i have described as happening is non-compliant then I will have described it incorrectly.

I will ask the question ‘If I cannot submit a GP card using the MyEG app when playing a course other than my own, and cannot get to the clubhouse to submit it, then how do I submit it. I must be able to submit it if that is what I want to do’

 

[wjemather]

I will check with club. The clubs issue is, I believe, one of visibility in iG of GP rounds members play away from home and that are input using MyEG - this visibility issue causes problems when it comes to determining whether or not a members record satisfies the criteria the club sets for entry into some competitions.

Perhaps the simplest solution is to change from conditions of entry to conditions for prize eligibility and then they'd only have to check the winners.

 

[Colin L]

Perhaps there is hope, at least for now, that WHS will be fixed. I wouldn't bother making my protests if I had lost that hope.`

Presumably as part of your protest you have submitted a detailed report to the R&A and USGA which analyses in depth with supporting evidence what is so wrong with the WHS that it should be scrapped? You'll have realised that making unsubstantiated assertions on an internet forum doesn't get you very far in your mission and will have gone right to the source of the difficulties. Could your report and their response be made available?

 

[D-S]

Perhaps the simplest solution is to change from conditions of entry to conditions for prize eligibility and then they'd only have to check the winners.

Seems sensible for strokeplay comps but not necessarily for matchplay.

 

[clubchamp98]

Do you believe there is enough support in clubs for this to happen?

I don’t think so.
An awful lot of members couldn’t care less.

It’s only competitive players who take any interest.

 

[Colin L]

I will check with club. The clubs issue is, I believe, one of visibility in iG of GP rounds members play away from home and that are input using MyEG - this visibility issue causes problems when it comes to determining whether or not a members record satisfies the criteria the club sets for entry into some competitions.

As far as compliance with WHS…I am confident that my club makes every effort to be as compliant as it possibly can - if what i have described as happening is non-compliant then I will have described it incorrectly.

I will ask the question ‘If I cannot submit a GP card using the MyEG app when playing a course other than my own, and cannot get to the clubhouse to submit it, then how do I submit it. I must be able to submit it if that is what I want to do’

I understand what you are saying but I don't understand the problem. Can your club not access a members full handicap record through England Golf not read-only but with the facility to make adjustments? I was certainly able to do that through the Scottish Golf database when I was still actively dealing with handicaps at my club. This was quite frequent at the beginning in order to explain to a member why his/her HI was what it was and to correct transitional errors.