Handicap manipulation - how to address

[jim8flog]

I enter most at my club but as a low capper I have very little chance of winning so for me it's just an opportunity to get cut. I don't enter the sweep, that's just throwing money away.

Is that a 2s sweep or just a general sweep.

At one time the best player in our club only enter the comps to win 2s money.
Even pre WHS he reckoned he had no chance of winning the comp (even when Div 1 was up to 9hcp)

 

[jim8flog]

That’s a very scary statistic.

Pre COVID our catering was franchised and the franchisee paid for the club house staff but we could not get another to take it on.

Until a few years ago the pro was run by a pro who was paid a retainer (very small amount in comparison with paying a shop manager) and he paid all shop staff wages, when he retired we took on the pro shop and now have to pay the manager and all proshop staff wages.

We now have 44 staff.

Pre Covid we had 11

 

[clubchamp98]

Just had a look through our medal results. This is a “championship” course with 34 plus hcp golfers.

Jan 14
Feb 15
Mar 8
April +3
May 18
June 5
July 5
Aug 19
Sep 10
Oct 12
Nov 14.

We don’t seem to get many people over 20 hcp playing, perhaps because the course is too tough off the whites.

What’s the winning handicaps of the Stableford winners.
Would be interesting to compare.

 

[3 jabber]

Is that a 2s sweep or just a general sweep.

At one time the best player in our club only enter the comps to win 2s money.
Even pre WHS he reckoned he had no chance of winning the comp (even when Div 1 was up to 9hcp)

We run both and also a gross sweep. Unfortunately with quite a few plus cappers I'm unlikely to win that either

 

[doublebogey7]

There are many clubs up and down the country who operate at proprietary courses. They are totally reliant on a proportion of competition fees to exist.

I was previousley a memeber of a propriety club, where competitions operated on a non profit basis so rightly were not relient on entry fee's. I am sure those that are, could follow the model we had there.

 

[doublebogey7]

Our membership fees cover less than half of the cost of running the club and do not even cover the cost of staff wages.

Then I assume you one of those clubs that are fortunate in having a number of visitors paying significant amounts for the privalege.

 

[KenL]

Pre COVID our catering was franchised and the franchisee paid for the club house staff but we could not get another to take it on.

Until a few years ago the pro was run by a pro who was paid a retainer (very small amount in comparison with paying a shop manager) and he paid all shop staff wages, when he retired we took on the pro shop and now have to pay the manager and all proshop staff wages.

We now have 44 staff.

Pre Covid we had 11

Someone needs to look at what’s being spent and what needs to be spent!

 

[jim8flog]

Someone needs to look at what’s being spent and what needs to be spent!

Then I assume you one of those clubs that are fortunate in having a number of visitors paying significant amounts for the privalege.

Pre Covid we made a healthy profit most years.

We have a dedicated board of directors who control the spending etc.

We do have other revenue streams e.g societies, visitors, function room and driving range, the range is packed at weekends - so much the members complain about not being able to get on it
We have bar and catering income but that area actually makes a loss, taking staff costs in to consideration, but that apparently is quite common in golf courses these days. (When it was franchised it was a very good revenue stream).

Membership fees went up 20% last year and there was a big outcry about it and we lost members. We have to remain competitive with other clubs in the area re membership fees.

 

[doublebogey7]

Pre Covid we made a healthy profit most years.

We have a dedicated board of directors who control the spending etc.

We do have other revenue streams e.g societies, visitors, function room and driving range, the range is packed at weekends - so much the members complain about not being able to get on it
We have bar and catering income but that area actually makes a loss, taking staff costs in to consideration, but that apparently is quite common in golf courses these days. (When it was franchised it was a very good revenue stream).

Membership fees went up 20% last year and there was a big outcry about it and we lost members. We have to remain competitive with other clubs in the area re membership fees.

Interesting, the finances at my club have improved significantly since Covid, as our treasurer ensured we applied for every grant going and like most around these parts having increased membership numbers, though that has fallen back a little iver the last two years.

 

[jim8flog]

Interesting, the finances at my club have improved significantly since Covid, as our treasurer ensured we applied for every grant going and like most around these parts having increased membership numbers, though that has fallen back a little iver the last two years.

Yes originally post Covid we increased our number of members and we had a waiting list, we now have a vacancies.

The last years weather meant our 9 hole course was closed a lot so we lost a lot of the revenue stream for that as it is open to anybody and usually is quite rammed at weekends.

 

[Genu9]

Kinda gone off subject a bit......

 

[clubchamp98]

Kinda gone off subject a bit......

Yes always does.
Some love WHS they Havnt seen or won’t admit manipulation happens
Some don’t as they have seen it.
That won’t change imo.

 

[AussieKB]

I'm sandbagging beautifully at the moment, gone out 1.5 in my last 5 rounds, helps playing at one of my courses that is nearly unplayable at the moment, yet they keep playing comps and putting the cards in.

 

[wjemather]

Yes always does.
Some love WHS they Havnt seen or won’t admit manipulation happens
Some don’t as they have seen it.
That won’t change imo.

No-one has ever denied manipulation happens.
Some are dishonestly exaggerating the scale of manipulation, and their solution is to blow the entire system up rather than deal with the very small number of culprits. Of course, their true desire has nothing to do with fixing manipulation but to return to a system that gives low handicappers a significant advantage, and severely disadvantages high handicappers.

 

[clubchamp98]

No-one has ever denied manipulation happens.
Some are dishonestly exaggerating the scale of manipulation, and their solution is to blow the entire system up rather than deal with the very small number of culprits. Of course, their true desire has nothing to do with fixing manipulation but to return to a system that gives low handicappers a significant advantage, and severely disadvantages high handicappers.

Yes they have!
The ones who play golf in a bubble.

I am not asking for an advantage over high handicappers just don’t give them an advantage over me.!
Unfortunately that’s what has happened.
Any new system should not disadvantage anybody, is that to much to ask for.?

 

[bobmac]

Some are dishonestly exaggerating the scale of manipulation,

Calling golfers liars doesn't help your argument

 

[wjemather]

I am not asking for an advantage over high handicappers just don’t give them an advantage over me.!
Unfortunately that’s what has happened.
Any new system should not disadvantage anybody, is that to much to ask for.?

Yes. There are fundamental limitations to all handicap systems, and equity is a balancing act. Everyone is advantaged and/or disadvantaged in various metrics (NB winning isn't the only measure). You want yourself (i.e. low handicappers) to never be disadvantaged - which can only happen by severely disadvantaging high handicappers in several metrics. The only real mitigation that provides near parity across most metrics is for competition to be within handicap brackets - i.e. divisions.

 

[AussieKB]

I love the old handicap bracket argument, but how many names go up on a gold letter event ?

Yes I won the Open in "F" division really sounds great.

 

[clubchamp98]

Yes. There are fundamental limitations to all handicap systems, and equity is a balancing act. Everyone is advantaged and/or disadvantaged in various metrics (NB winning isn't the only measure). You want yourself (i.e. low handicappers) to never be disadvantaged - which can only happen by severely disadvantaging high handicappers in several metrics. The only real mitigation that provides near parity across most metrics is for competition to be within handicap brackets - i.e. divisions.

So why change systems then if you can’t make it equal.
It makes no sense to me to disadvantage the very people who try to get better at the game.

 

[clubchamp98]

Yes. There are fundamental limitations to all handicap systems, and equity is a balancing act. Everyone is advantaged and/or disadvantaged in various metrics (NB winning isn't the only measure). You want yourself (i.e. low handicappers) to never be disadvantaged - which can only happen by severely disadvantaging high handicappers in several metrics. The only real mitigation that provides near parity across most metrics is for competition to be within handicap brackets - i.e. divisions.

How does me not being disadvantaged severely disadvantage the high handicappers.?