Handicap manipulation - how to address

[KenL]

But how often does anyone? Very rarely.

I'm a very sub-5 handicap and have shot 40+ points on multiple occasions this year (best was a gross 66 for 43 points and the win; in another comp I got edged out by a fellow 2 handicapper). A couple of other lows at my club are the same; whereas others haven't been close to 40 all year; and it's the same story for higher handicappers.

Bandit. Sorry, couldn’t resist.

 

[KenL]

Just had a look through our medal results. This is a “championship” course with 34 plus hcp golfers.

Jan 14
Feb 15
Mar 8
April +3
May 18
June 5
July 5
Aug 19
Sep 10
Oct 12
Nov 14.

We don’t seem to get many people over 20 hcp playing, perhaps because the course is too tough off the whites.

 

[Steve Wilkes]

But how often does anyone? Very rarely.

I'm a very sub-5 handicap and have shot 40+ points on multiple occasions this year (best was a gross 66 for 43 points and the win; in another comp I got edged out by a fellow 2 handicapper). A couple of other lows at my club are the same; whereas others haven't been close to 40 all year; and it's the same story for higher handicappers.

I reckon for every low capper that says he won't enter a comp, cause he thinks he won't win , there are just as many if not more high cappers who say the same
Most of the time its just an excuse for not wanting to play
It's like the people who say they don't play golf anymore cause of slow play, yet still wouldn't play if it was 3 hours 15 minutes per round

 

[KenL]

I reckon for every low capper that says he won't enter a comp, cause he thinks he won't win , there are just as many if not more high cappers who say the same
Most of the time its just an excuse for not wanting to play
It's like the people who say they don't play golf anymore cause of slow play, yet still wouldn't play if it was 3 hours 15 minutes per round

Interesting. At my club, I’ve never heard anyone say people don’t enter because they can’t win.
But, at my mate’s club apparently lots of people are refusing to play because of “banditry”.
Says, if you can’t score 45 stableford points you are not in the prizes.

 

[PaulMdj]

I reckon for every low capper that says he won't enter a comp, cause he thinks he won't win , there are just as many if not more high cappers who say the same
Most of the time its just an excuse for not wanting to play
It's like the people who say they don't play golf anymore cause of slow play, yet still wouldn't play if it was 3 hours 15 minutes per round

Our high handicappers more often than not will enter the Comps, but not the 2’s (1.50) as they don’t think they have a chance.

 

[WorldHandicapSystem]

Arrogant, elitist, entitled, condescending, patronising, supercilious, dismissive, derogatory ....... and totally blind to the realities of amateur golf. For the fortunate few who develop into scratch and plus handicap amateurs and into professionals, the reality is that it is generally speaking club golf which has got them where they are. Where do the talented youngsters learn, practice and develop? Rather obviously on golf courses - over 550 in Scotland alone. And what do golf courses depend on for their existence? Equally obviously on the people who pay to play on them, tens of thousands of them in "the Home of Golf" alone. Millions worldwide. It goes without saying that we are not all scratch players, that the huge majority of us couldn't take part in a scratch competition, not just because the entry requirements are beyond us but also because humiliation and embarrassment are not desirable outcomes of a game of golf. But we are what keeps the sport alive; our competitions matter whether club competitions or a fourball matches with friends; and the competitions wouldn't be viable without handicaps.

Enjoy the rarified atmosphere of your golfing world but when you occasionally condescend to look down from those Olympian heights on us lesser golfing mortals, remember who is paying for the oxygen you need.

Hope you feel better now you’ve got that off your chest.

I was addressing the so called ‘low men’ who consider themselves to be serious golfers. And them complaining about not being able to win a weekend stableford.

At no point, did I look down upon or anything like that at higher handicappers. Most of your post has little to nothing at all to do with the topic being discussed. The vast majority of golf is not played in organised competitions. So golf and golf courses would survive without the weekend stableford.

 

[rosecott]

The vast majority of golf is not played in organised competitions. So golf and golf courses would survive without the weekend stableford.

There are many clubs up and down the country who operate at proprietary courses. They are totally reliant on a proportion of competition fees to exist.

 

[D-S]

There are many clubs up and down the country who operate at proprietary courses. They are totally reliant on a proportion of competition fees to exist.

I’m not sure what the maths is with proprietary clubs but as a members club our regular club competitions deliver zero profit to the club.
You would have to be charging pretty high entry fees and have a low prize pot to be able to make a decent return out of normal competitions.

 

[clubchamp98]

Is that every Saturday across the year?

Not January of February as there are no comps.
But the rest yes.

 

[KenL]

Not January of February as there are no comps.
But the rest yes.

Does that suit the majority of the membership?

 

[clubchamp98]

Does that suit the majority of the membership

Must do most don’t leave.

 

[rosecott]

I’m not sure what the maths is with proprietary clubs but as a members club our regular club competitions deliver zero profit to the club.
You would have to be charging pretty high entry fees and have a low prize pot to be able to make a decent return out of normal competitions.

That is how it works. 20-25% of comp fees go into club funds for all the expenditure needed to run a club with greenkeeping, catering, administration etc. paid by the company from annual membership fees. Not all clubs are the same. My point is that we would not exist as an affiliated club if there were no comps providing the funds to run it.

 

[D-S]

That is how it works. 20-25% of comp fees go into club funds for all the expenditure needed to run a club with greenkeeping, catering, administration etc. paid by the company from annual membership fees. Not all clubs are the same. My point is that we would not exist as an affiliated club if there were no comps providing the funds to run it.

So if you have let’s say 250 competitors a week, (one big comp and two medium ones per week) paying £3 for 8 months a year and 125 competitors per week in the winter, you would make about £8000 a year.
This would be £15 to £20 per person if you decided to fund it that way rather than via competition entry fees.
Is that the sort of money needed to fund running a club? (of course with the overwhelming majority of day to day expense coming from subscriptions).

 

[jim8flog]

I’m not sure what the maths is with proprietary clubs but as a members club our regular club competitions deliver zero profit to the club.
You would have to be charging pretty high entry fees and have a low prize pot to be able to make a decent return out of normal competitions.

We are a members club and 20% of the entry fee is taken out by the club (including the 2s pot).
Another point is that the winnings must be spent in the pro shop and we own the Proshop not a golf pro.

 

[jim8flog]

So if you have let’s say 250 competitors a week, (one big comp and two medium ones per week) paying £3 for 8 months a year and 125 competitors per week in the winter, you would make about £8000 a year.
This would be £15 to £20 per person if you decided to fund it that way rather than via competition entry fees.
Is that the sort of money needed to fund running a club? (of course with the overwhelming majority of day to day expense coming from subscriptions).

Our membership fees cover less than half of the cost of running the club and do not even cover the cost of staff wages.

 

[KenL]

Our membership fees cover less than half of the cost of running the club and do not even cover the cost of staff wages.

That’s a very scary statistic.

 

[3 jabber]

I reckon for every low capper that says he won't enter a comp, cause he thinks he won't win , there are just as many if not more high cappers who say the same
Most of the time its just an excuse for not wanting to play
It's like the people who say they don't play golf anymore cause of slow play, yet still wouldn't play if it was 3 hours 15 minutes per round

I enter most at my club but as a low capper I have very little chance of winning so for me it's just an opportunity to get cut. I don't enter the sweep, that's just throwing money away.

 

[2blue]

So if you have let’s say 250 competitors a week, (one big comp and two medium ones per week) paying £3 for 8 months a year and 125 competitors per week in the winter, you would make about £8000 a year.
This would be £15 to £20 per person if you decided to fund it that way rather than via competition entry fees.
Is that the sort of money needed to fund running a club? (of course with the overwhelming majority of day to day expense coming from subscriptions).

I guess it depends if the 'Club' is different to the 'Course ownership' or one & the same. Should those who enter Comps have 20% of the prize fund redistributed to support areas that None-Comp-playing members benefit from. Should these costs not be shared across all Members through their annual Subs?
We are currently going through this dilemma. As costs go up will the cost of Comp entry increase or the % taken??

 

[Thintowin]

Just been reading through the last few pages of posts. Not sure I got much out of it other than a few suggestions that if you don't like WHS then don't bother competing. One key aspect of playing the game is to compete. This WHS was supposed to grow the game. It might get more to have a go but will they stick at it once they realise its inadequacies?

This thread is about manipulation. That's something that needs to be addressed of course but it's not the only reason why many don't trust the system to provide a decent competitive environment.

The competitive amongst us want to succeed in creating that environment so we have a happy and healthy future for the game.

Happy new year

 

[Colin L]

Just for your information, there has been a significant worldwide growth in golf over the last eight years according [Source: R&A study]