Giving advice

[rulefan]

If your question was about a provisional, as I posted above, I already have a ruling from them.

I will post it in a couple of days when I´m back home.

From the R&A

"Suggesting to a player that he plays a provisional is not considered to be giving "advice" but rather, providing information on the Rules. Such information is permitted and is considered good etiquette. The statement should be of a casual nature, such as: "maybe you should hit a provisional", rather than counsel which could influence a player in determining his play."

 

[Imurg]

This thread, to me, highlights how complicated seemingly simple Rules are.

If you can't even say "Take your Time" as it's construed to be giving advice then there will be a lot of very quiet rounds in future.

Wording on Rules is very important - going back to the Unplayable thread - advice needs to be strictly defined.

Isn't providing information on the Rules the same as advising someone of the rules...

Same word - different gravy

 

[Foxholer]

That's the very question Ethan has asked. My own tuppence worth is that by offering to explain his options to the other player, you are telling him that he has these choices (which he may or may not realise, but you don't know which) and as such are giving him information which could influence his playing of the hole - therefore advice. If he asks what his options are, then he is aware he has them and in replying you are simply giving information on the rules which is ok. As a player, I certainly don't ever offer.

I'm pleased someone is actually asking and hope it also covers the referee situation.

While I agree that a Referee should intercede if he can see that a Rule is about to be broken, I'm pretty dubious about whether one should actually ask whether a 2nd ball is a Provisional - as no rule is about to be broken. Not announcing that the ball about to be played simply means that Stroke and Distance is being applied. Should the player reply... 'Yes, I'd forgotten I have to announce' or 'Yes, Id forgotten that I hadn't announced', the Referee has clearly influenced his (non Rule Breaking) play!

My approach - as a FC - would be to wait see either whether a second ball is put in play or whether a question was asked about the possible outcome of his shot. If, from the player's actions, a 2nd ball isn't put into play and I think a provisional one would be worthwhile, I would then suggest exactly that. However, (imo) whether the player concerned then actually announces it or not is his responsibility. By asking, I believe I am influencing how he might acting, so that is advice!

The other area that would cause me discomfit, though it has never happened, is when I am marking a card, do not here, while listening for it, the 'Provisional' announcement and then the player claims, even by looking for the first, that he did announce. I think I would ask whether he did and accept whatever reply was made, though there might be a couple of folk where I might not be happy to do this with!

 

[Ethan]

On the provo question, I previously asked the R&A a question:

"Player A hits a ball which goes towards possible trouble. Without any comment from player A, Player B says "Looks dodgy. I would hit a provisional if I were you". Has player B offered advice in breach of the rules?"

The answer was:

"Generally such statements are made as a courtesy, rather than to council or influence the player in his play. So by advising a player to hit a provisional (more than likely with the intention it will save the group time) is not considered “advice” in breach of Rule 8-1."

Apart from the incorrect spelling of counsel, sounds good to me.

 

[Colin L]

I'm pleased someone is actually asking and hope it also covers the referee situation.

While I agree that a Referee should intercede if he can see that a Rule is about to be broken, I'm pretty dubious about whether one should actually ask whether a 2nd ball is a Provisional - as no rule is about to be broken.

Apologies Foxholer for not giving you a reference for this. It is explicit in the R&A's Guidance on Running a Competition
http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-A...unning-a-Competition.aspx?chapter=6&section=1

The following are examples of actions that a referee may take in order to prevent a breach of the Rules:

If a player is about to play another ball because the original ball may be lost or out of bounds, ask the player whether it is a provisional ball.........

I did just that today, by chance. A player hit a wild one and his opponent said, "Are you going to play another one?" to which the answer was "Yes". That is not specific enough and so I checked if the ball was to be a provisional. The potential breach of the rules you are preventing is that the player who does not clearly state the ball is a provisional, goes forward, finds his original ball and plays it.

 

[duncan mackie]

On the provo question, I previously asked the R&A a question:

"Player A hits a ball which goes towards possible trouble. Without any comment from player A, Player B says "Looks dodgy. I would hit a provisional if I were you". Has player B offered advice in breach of the rules?"

The answer was:

"Generally such statements are made as a courtesy, rather than to council or influence the player in his play. So by advising a player to hit a provisional (more than likely with the intention it will save the group time) is not considered “advice” in breach of Rule 8-1."

Apart from the incorrect spelling of counsel, sounds good to me.

So you are happy with this - but somehow manage to reconcile this with your statement that "take you time" inherently constitutes advice (I believe it says the opposite) and that, as in the OP to this thread, you've suggested it's not advice to raise possible options under the rules specifically to influence someone's choice of play. Again to me it says the opposite.

 

[Ethan]

So you are happy with this - but somehow manage to reconcile this with your statement that "take you time" inherently constitutes advice (I believe it says the opposite) and that, as in the OP to this thread, you've suggested it's not advice to raise possible options under the rules specifically to influence someone's choice of play. Again to me it says the opposite.

Well, I didn't say that I thought 'take your time' was giving advice, rather mused that it may be, given that someone had said that anything said which influences the play of a shot is advice, then the take your time question is pertinent.

On the provo, I think the rules officials are happy to encourage provos being played rather than long walks back, so perhaps they take the view that the philosophical difference between suggesting a provo on the tee and allowing a player to walk back is only one of time.

 

[Foxholer]

Apologies Foxholer for not giving you a reference for this. It is explicit in the R&A's Guidance on Running a Competition
http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-A...n-Running-a-Competition.aspx?chapter=6§ion=1

The following are examples of actions that a referee may take in order to prevent a breach of the Rules:

If a player is about to play another ball because the original ball may be lost or out of bounds, ask the player whether it is a provisional ball.........

I did just that today, by chance. A player hit a wild one and his opponent said, "Are you going to play another one?" to which the answer was "Yes". That is not specific enough and so I checked if the ball was to be a provisional. The potential breach of the rules you are preventing is that the player who does not clearly state the ball is a provisional, goes forward, finds his original ball and plays it.

Happy to actually have a 'ruling' on that, however it seems a bit dodgy - stretching things - that the 'potential breach' is quite a while in the future. I would have thought that if the Referee stayed schtum and noted that that 'Provisional' wasn't announced, he would 'prevent a potential breach' more directly by pointing out that the first ball was out of play - either immediately after the player hit his 2nd ball or when he went to look for his first.

Does that also mean that, in the same circumstances, a FC could/should (in equity?) ask the same question?

Oh. It could be that the wording of that question was quite deliberate. The player potentially helped pace of play without the possible accusation of advice and left it to his opponent to specify 'Provisional' or not. As there could have been 2 shots involved, I'd be interested to know and how he reacted when you asked?

 

[Colin L]

On the refereeing matter, I pointed to the outcome of the player's getting it wrong - ie meaning to play a provisional and not declaring that clearly enough. OK that is a bit away, and may not happen as he might not find his original ball anyway. But let me change from potential to immediate in that the breach you are trying to prevent will happen at the moment he makes a stroke at the ball without, as the Rules require, declaring it to be a provisional. It is immediate. Anyway, the job is to help players play the game , and making sure the player doesn't trip himself up over some words is to me just as important as letting him know, say that he has teed up in front of the markers.

Regarding an FC, I would ask him to clarify for much the same reason - I don't reckon on watching an FC heading for a rules breach and not preventing it. And I would hope to get the same in return.

 

[Foxholer]

On the refereeing matter, I pointed to the outcome of the player's getting it wrong - ie meaning to play a provisional and not declaring that clearly enough. OK that is a bit away, and may not happen as he might not find his original ball anyway. But let me change from potential to immediate in that the breach you are trying to prevent will happen at the moment he makes a stroke at the ball without, as the Rules require, declaring it to be a provisional. It is immediate. Anyway, the job is to help players play the game , and making sure the player doesn't trip himself up over some words is to me just as important as letting him know, say that he has teed up in front of the markers.

Regarding an FC, I would ask him to clarify for much the same reason - I don't reckon on watching an FC heading for a rules breach and not preventing it. And I would hope to get the same in return.

My point was that he has not actually 'breached' any Rule. It's just that the conditions for the Rule to be applicable don't apply - so another one - Stroke and Distance does. To me, there is a difference between a breach and applicability.

Looks like I should change the way I handle these situations too - though Matchplay would be interesting. I'd think I'd ask. It certainly eliminates the potential did/didn't discussion later!

At least by having something to refer to (the refereeing bit) it could not be deemed 'advice', merely clarification.

 

[Colin L]

Why not just leave at as simple matter: the player by saying nothing or saying something imprecise could mess up his intention to play a provisional ball and it's the referee's duty to help him avoid a mistake. And a player should equally want to help an FC avoid a mistake caused by a moment's carelessness (eg teeing up in front of markers, replacing his ball at his marker when he marked a putterhead away) or an unawareness of a correct procedure like declaring a provisional ball.

 

[rulefan]

I think my post prior to Ethan's must have been missed.

Following a conversation with the R&A some years ago I was sent this.

"Suggesting to a player that he plays a provisional is not considered to be giving "advice" but rather, providing information on the Rules. Such information is permitted and is considered good etiquette. The statement should be of a casual nature, such as: "maybe you should hit a provisional", rather than counsel which could influence a player in determining his play."

Our conversation covered how such a comment could 'determine his play, the choice of club or the method of making the stroke'. It was agreed that unless something else was said none of these factors were relevant.

Similarly in another (informal) conversation it was suggested, that as long as 'take your time' didn't mean something like 'slow your swing down', then that was not a problem.

 

[rulefan]

A bit extra. I was officiating at an EGU comp. The TD told the starter and any RO whose tour covered the area, to suggest to players, that if they were not sure their tee shot on the xth hole had cleared the dogleg, then they should take a provisional, as the ground between the trees and the fairway was a jungle.

 

[rulefan]

I think your key word here is 'referee'

Also I believe if you are playing in a team match the team captain can give advice (or is that a local competition rule) so can check with his player who is about to play another ball.

Rule8
Note: The Committee may, in the conditions of a team competition (Rule 33-1), permit each team to appoint one person who may give Advice (including pointing out a line for putting) to members of that team. The Committee may establish conditions relating to the appointment and permitted conduct of that person, who must be identified to the Committee before giving Advice

 

[Colin L]

I think my post prior to Ethan's must have been missed.

Following a conversation with the R&A some years ago I was sent this.

"Suggesting to a player that he plays a provisional is not considered to be giving "advice" but rather, providing information on the Rules. Such information is permitted and is considered good etiquette. The statement should be of a casual nature, such as: "maybe you should hit a provisional", rather than counsel which could influence a player in determining his play."

Our conversation covered how such a comment could 'determine his play, the choice of club or the method of making the stroke'. It was agreed that unless something else was said none of these factors were relevant.

Similarly in another (informal) conversation it was suggested, that as long as 'take your time' didn't mean something like 'slow your swing down', then that was not a problem.

No, not missed at all - and appreciated. I was resisting the temptation however just to say to Foxholer "Why not leave it as a simple matter: that's what the R&A tells us; ours not to reason why." So indulged in a little reasoning why.

Good to see your time away from those files has invigorated you.

 

[Foxholer]

No, not missed at all - and appreciated. I was resisting the temptation however just to say to Foxholer "Why not leave it as a simple matter: that's what the R&A tells us; ours not to reason why." So indulged in a little reasoning why.

Good to see your time away from those files has invigorated you.

As stated, unlike Kieran Bradley et al, I'm content with that!

 

[Region3]

No doubt totally wrong reasoning, but the reason I will ask if a FC if a second ball off the tee is a provisional if I don't hear him say anything, is that I don't want a confrontation/argument if he finds his first ball and looks like he's going to play it.

 

[Foxholer]

No doubt totally wrong reasoning, but the reason I will ask if a FC if a second ball off the tee is a provisional if I don't hear him say anything, is that I don't want a confrontation/argument if he finds his first ball and looks like he's going to play it.

That is perfectly reasonable - though it would be possible to point out that as he hadn't announced it, the 2nd was the ball in play as you leave the tee! That way, you could have an argument all the way up to the balls!

I think the query is also a good prompt for cases like Thomas Bjorn's at Lytham - the year Woosie had 15 clubs in the bag - where he thought his first was OOB, but it wasn't!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

So you are happy with this - but somehow manage to reconcile this with your statement that "take you time" inherently constitutes advice (I believe it says the opposite) and that, as in the OP to this thread, you've suggested it's not advice to raise possible options under the rules specifically to influence someone's choice of play. Again to me it says the opposite.

'Take your time' just seems to be a bit of general 'it's good for your health' advice and not advice on your PPs golf as such. You are not actually advising your PP of anything really.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Back on the 'giving advice' front. I noticed that a FC was teeing up in in front of markers. Do I let him tee off then call him - or is warning him that he is in front of the markers a statement of fact - so not 'advice' or would my warning not be counted as advice as he has not put a ball in play. I told him.