Giving advice

[Ethan]

Duncan is correct. This was not advice, it was telling the player how the rule worked.

I agree it is not advice, but I was referring to the first part of Duncan's post where he mentioned not being neutral and influencing the shot.

 

[duncan mackie]

I agree it is not advice, but I was referring to the first part of Duncan's post where he mentioned not being neutral and influencing the shot.

Ethan, the answer to 'am I sure' isn't easy in situations which don't have absolute clarity in the rules.

The best way I can explain it is that if it required ruling at our club - 1. that's how I would rule but 2. I would welcome the opportunity to get a definitive ruling!

We have the definition, which is both the bit you quoted and the bit that references advice as anything that could influence a players play of his next shot. The potential for confusion lies in the interplay between the two, but, for example, 'rules matters' are not worded an exception to the first sentence.

For me this duality is continued in 8-1/16 (previously 79/6 I think)

"Suggesting to Competitor That He Deem His Ball Unplayable

Q.B's ball was lying badly. B was deliberating what action to take when A, his fellow-competitor, said: "You have no shot at all. If I were you, I would deem the ball unplayable." Was A giving advice, contrary to Rule 8-1?

A.Yes. A's suggestion could have influenced B "in determining his play." Thus, it constituted advice - see Definition of "Advice." It did not constitute "information on the Rules," which is not advice."

the title of the decision, and references in it to suggesting are, to my mind, slightly at odds with the wording in the Q "You have no shot at all. If I were you, I would deem the ball unplayable." which goes way beyond a suggestion to my mind.

this is further confused by a clarification on the suggestion that a player plays a provisional - it has been clarified that this does not constitute advice but that the words used should be casual rather than in the form of counselling.

in the above decision we have a casual title and referencing but a clear form of words that take the form of counselling - so is it the form of words or the suggestion (that could influence the choice of play) that is the basis for this ruling?!?

walking up to someone in the deep rough and telling them that they have the option to call the ball unplayable is clearly a suggestion.

what we really need is a decision 8-1/16.5 that includes a casual form of words that clearly suggest the player considers proceeding under an unplayable ball option, with it either representing advice because it would influence their choice of how to proceed or it not constituting advice because you are simply advising them of the rules, despite such freely given information influencing their next shot.

sorry for the long answer - I hope it helps.

 

[Ethan]

Ethan, the answer to 'am I sure' isn't easy in situations which don't have absolute clarity in the rules.

The best way I can explain it is that if it required ruling at our club - 1. that's how I would rule but 2. I would welcome the opportunity to get a definitive ruling!

We have the definition, which is both the bit you quoted and the bit that references advice as anything that could influence a players play of his next shot. The potential for confusion lies in the interplay between the two, but, for example, 'rules matters' are not worded an exception to the first sentence.

For me this duality is continued in 8-1/16 (previously 79/6 I think)

"Suggesting to Competitor That He Deem His Ball Unplayable

Q.B's ball was lying badly. B was deliberating what action to take when A, his fellow-competitor, said: "You have no shot at all. If I were you, I would deem the ball unplayable." Was A giving advice, contrary to Rule 8-1?

A.Yes. A's suggestion could have influenced B "in determining his play." Thus, it constituted advice - see Definition of "Advice." It did not constitute "information on the Rules," which is not advice."

the title of the decision, and references in it to suggesting are, to my mind, slightly at odds with the wording in the Q "You have no shot at all. If I were you, I would deem the ball unplayable." which goes way beyond a suggestion to my mind.

this is further confused by a clarification on the suggestion that a player plays a provisional - it has been clarified that this does not constitute advice but that the words used should be casual rather than in the form of counselling.

in the above decision we have a casual title and referencing but a clear form of words that take the form of counselling - so is it the form of words or the suggestion (that could influence the choice of play) that is the basis for this ruling?!?

walking up to someone in the deep rough and telling them that they have the option to call the ball unplayable is clearly a suggestion.

what we really need is a decision 8-1/16.5 that includes a casual form of words that clearly suggest the player considers proceeding under an unplayable ball option, with it either representing advice because it would influence their choice of how to proceed or it not constituting advice because you are simply advising them of the rules, despite such freely given information influencing their next shot.

sorry for the long answer - I hope it helps.

I understand the distinction. But what if you said "Hi, do you want me to explain your options under the rules? It will be your choice to decide how to proceed though". That would not be advice in my book.

And if you say "Do you want to play a provisional?", I think that falls (just) short of advice. Saying "Maybe you should consider hitting a provisional" has a subtly different flavour on the other side of the line in my view.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I understand the distinction. But what if you said "Hi, do you want me to explain your options under the rules? It will be your choice to decide how to proceed though". That would not be advice in my book.

And if you say "Do you want to play a provisional?", I think that falls (just) short of advice. Saying "Maybe you should consider hitting a provisional" has a subtly different flavour on the other side of the line in my view.

But as Duncan has explained to me here - the very fact of you offering to explain rules or ask if he wants to play a provisional are made by you in a specific context and it is that which implies you are advising him 'you should think about asking me about the rules here' and 'you should think about hitting a provisional' They seem incongruous - but as the questions you ask are in the context of the situation a player finds himself in then they constitute advice.

 

[Ethan]

But as Duncan has explained to me here - the very fact of you offering to explain rules or ask if he wants to play a provisional are made by you in a specific context and it is that which implies you are advising him 'you should think about asking me about the rules here' and 'you should think about hitting a provisional' They seem incongruous - but as the questions you ask are in the context of the situation a player finds himself in then they constitute advice.

But the rules don't make that distinction. I don't agree that the first example is advice. The provo may be depending on how you word it. On the general question of whether something you says influences the shot, that is too crude a benchmark. Asking how far it is to that tree (not advice) influences the shot.

 

[duncan mackie]

I understand the distinction. But what if you said "Hi, do you want me to explain your options under the rules? It will be your choice to decide how to proceed though". That would not be advice in my book.

And if you say "Do you want to play a provisional?", I think that falls (just) short of advice. Saying "Maybe you should consider hitting a provisional" has a subtly different flavour on the other side of the line in my view.

let's leave the provisional out of it for the time being as it's a very specific aspect that, most argue, doesn't fall into the category of advice because you can't influence the way they play, only when, and on top of that 25-2 exists for the sole purpose of (potentially) saving time not shots.

swingsit has covered the other point; you can't raise options in such a situation without implying the suggestion that the player considers them. the choice of words simply affects the degree of the suggestion to consider alternatives.

 

[duncan mackie]

But the rules don't make that distinction. I don't agree that the first example is advice. The provo may be depending on how you word it. On the general question of whether something you says influences the shot, that is too crude a benchmark. Asking how far it is to that tree (not advice) influences the shot.

but they haven't asked (how far the tree is)!

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

One thing i have thought. If you're explaining/offering more than one option to them, could that be advice? As you don't offer any suggestion as to which theyshould do...

 

[duncan mackie]

One thing i have thought. If you're explaining/offering more than one option to them, could that be advice? As you don't offer any suggestion as to which theyshould do...

it's a good point, but we know from 8-1/16 that the absence of a specific recomendation ie which option, is definitely not a relevant factor.

 

[Region3]

I would have said that offering to explain a rule to someone who hasn't realised or considered that he may be able to take a penalty drop - and therefore need the rule - is tantamount to suggesting that it would be a good idea to so so.

As for the provisional side of it, I'd never suggest a FC play a provisional (unless they asked due to not knowing the course), but if they tee another ball up without clarifying, I would ask them if it were a provisional or not.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I would have said that offering to explain a rule to someone who hasn't realised or considered that he may be able to take a penalty drop - and therefore need the rule - is tantamount to suggesting that it would be a good idea to so so.

As for the provisional side of it, I'd never suggest a FC play a provisional (unless they asked due to not knowing the course), but if they tee another ball up without clarifying, I would ask them if it were a provisional or not.

Re provisional - which is what I do - but in the conbext of what your FC is about to do, it seems to me that you are in fact advising him that he needs to tell you whether it is a provisional or not. I'm assuming that really you should just stay schtum, let him hit it and then tell him that as he did not declare it a provisional then it is now in fact the ball in play. Boy - that would make you popular if he found his first ball.

 

[Foxholer]

I would have said that offering to explain a rule to someone who hasn't realised or considered that he may be able to take a penalty drop - and therefore need the rule - is tantamount to suggesting that it would be a good idea to so so.

I agree. Unless they ask specifically 'What can I do' or 'What are my options' - and if they do, I always include the 'play it as it lies' and 'return to place of last shot using Stroke and Distance'.

As for the provisional side of it, I'd never suggest a FC play a provisional (unless they asked due to not knowing the course), but if they tee another ball up without clarifying, I would ask them if it were a provisional or not.

Here, we differ. I ball is possibly OOB or Lost, I will always suggest a Provisional - having waited to see whether player simply reloads. Only in bounce games would I ask whether it's provisional or not - as that is the FC's responsibility to announce. To ask the question strays into the 'Advice' area imo.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Here, we differ. If ball is possibly OOB or Lost, I will always suggest a Provisional - having waited to see whether player simply reloads. Only in bounce games would I ask whether it's provisional or not - as that is the FC's responsibility to announce. To ask the question strays into the 'Advice' area imo.

Agree with Foxholer here. Tell FC that the ball looks dodgy and suggest playing another seems fine to me - stating fact. But leave it at that.

 

[rulefan]

The R&A have informed me previously that suggesting that it would be appropriate for the player to play a provisional is not advice.

Unless a player is obviously unclear about his options (eg ´What can I do here?´ as opposed to ´What should I do here?´) a referee should not offer explain them as this could well be construed to be ´counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play´

However a referee should always act to prevent a breach of the rules.

 

[mikee247]

My issue here would be the fact there's a player in your 3 ball who's not in the competition..... just out for a jolly during a medal or major board comp is not something I would encourage, have ever seen and Im not sure is actually allowed.... I might have got this wrong but that opens all sorts of cans of worms!!

 

[duncan mackie]

My issue here would be the fact there's a player in your 3 ball who's not in the competition..... just out for a jolly during a medal or major board comp is not something I would encourage, have ever seen and Im not sure is actually allowed.... I might have got this wrong but that opens all sorts of cans of worms!!

it's definitely allowed, and recognised, within the rules - a few decisions revolve around such situations.

 

[Colin L]

Mikee - it can happen in a tournament that a player has to be sent out on his own with a marker. At the choice of the player, the marker can play alongside him. I have no knowledge of what proportion in professional tournaments choose for the marker to play as opposed to playing by themselves, but the choice is there.

 

[Foxholer]

However a referee should always act to prevent a breach of the rules.[/FONT][/COLOR]

Presumably, that would not include asking a player who had not stated 'Provisional' whether it was or not as no Rule is about to be breached, though it might cost the player Stroke and Distance.

 

[Colin L]

The curious thing about not saying anything in that situation is not just that nothing said means something, but that nothing said can mean two different things. The player might actively mean " I am knowingly putting another ball in play" or passively mean "I really intend this to be a provisional but i've forgotten to say/don't know any better." If the latter, the player who intends the ball he is about to play to be a provisional and says nothing is about to breach a rule.

To answer your question, a referee should ask the player about to play another ball whether it is a provisional or not.

 

[Ethan]

I sent a query to the R&A through the Rules website, so I will post the answer if and wen received.

One thing you jear all the time is one player saying to another 'Take your time'. That is advice, surely.