Giving advice

[CheltenhamHacker]

Two quick questions about "advice" within a medal round.

1) The chap I'm playing with has put it into the long thick stuff, and is clearly going to struggle to get it out. He is relatively new with a handicap, so doesn't know much about unplayables. Am I able to suggest/ask whether he is going to declare it unplayable, or would that be deemed to be giving advice?

2) Similar situation, but there is a third chap with us, who isn't in the medal, just playing a casual 18 holes along with us. What are the rules with advice from him/to him, including discussing clubs? In my head, this is a penalty, as whether or not he is in the medal, it is still against the rules. I just thought I would check though, for my own peace of mind...

 

[duncan mackie]

1. yes - this is designed to influence the other players choice of shot/play and clearly advice. You would be subject to a 2 shot penalty. even asking the player if he is aware of his options in such a situation would be the same.

2. slightly more complex, and I can't see a penalty to you for advice to him, unless you stood to gain from his actions ie you suggest he hit's a 6 iron on a par 3 before you play would be a penalty, you tell him what you hit wouldn't. He's not in the competition round so the giving of advice to him isn't a breach per se. Asking for advice from anyone other than a partner or caddie is.

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

Thank you very much for that Duncan!

That is what I thought for no1. Felt a bit harsh watching my mate attempt to hack it repeatedly out of the rough, wishing he knew to call it unplayable!

With re: question 2, that makes sense. The only real time it came up was when he asked me after I hit it, what I hit. Obviously I would have to wait till the other players in the comp had played, but I wasn't sure if I could tell him! Didn't think I could ask for advice, thanks again!

 

[full_throttle]

1. advising on the rules is not classed as giving advice, you can say- you are allowed relief under penalty, you cannot say I'd take relief

2. regardless of the competition, giving advice incurs a 2 shot penalty

Rule 8.1

 

[full_throttle]

maybe I'm wrong then

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

1. yes - this is designed to influence the other players choice of shot/play and clearly advice. You would be subject to a 2 shot penalty. even asking the player if he is aware of his options in such a situation would be the same.

Interesting Duncan. But can I not be completely neutral by saying to player 'if you are not sure of your options in this situation then you can ask me - but you must be specific about what you ask me and I cannot subsequently advise you what to do' He asks me and I tell him his options. Is that not just acting as a quasi rule book. I have not given advice just factual information on request.

 

[Foxholer]

1. yes - this is designed to influence the other players choice of shot/play and clearly advice. You would be subject to a 2 shot penalty. even asking the player if he is aware of his options in such a situation would be the same.

But if he asks you 'What are my options?'?

 

[Colin L]

But if he asks you 'What are my options?'?

That's no problem. He has asked for factual information and you simply give him all the options available under the rules without any suggestion which is preferable - no different from what a referee could be asked and could give.

 

[full_throttle]

so Colin, was my post #4 correct or incorrect?

 

[duncan mackie]

Interesting Duncan. But can I not be completely neutral by saying to player 'if you are not sure of your options in this situation then you can ask me - but you must be specific about what you ask me and I cannot subsequently advise you what to do' He asks me and I tell him his options. Is that not just acting as a quasi rule book. I have not given advice just factual information on request.

the simple answer is that you are not being completely neutral in this situation - did you same the same thing when he was playing all his shots? If not you are making a situation specific comment by asking this question and it's hard to see how this wouldn't influence his choice of shot.

make the comment before teeing off, and respond to a subsequent request for his options - all good

after a player has stated that he's considering taking an unplayable penalty (for example), asking him if he's aware of all his options - again fine.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

the simple answer is that you are not being completely neutral in this situation - did you same the same thing when he was playing all his shots? If not you are making a situation specific comment by asking this question and it's hard to see how this wouldn't influence his choice of shot.

make the comment before teeing off, and respond to a subsequent request for his options - all good

after a player has stated that he's considering taking an unplayable penalty (for example), asking him if he's aware of all his options - again fine.

You are quite correct in saying that my statement to the player is 'heavily loaded' as it is clearly specific to the situation the player finds himself. I am effectively advising him that he shgould seek clarification from me of his options And I cannot advise him - and if he subsequently asks me then he is accepting my advice. So yup - I can see how we both vbreach the rules. As it happens before teeing off I often tell inexperienced players (that may not know me that well) to not be afraid or embarrassed about asking me if they are not sure of the ruling options in any situation.

Thanks Duncan

 

[Foxholer]

That's no problem. He has asked for factual information and you simply give him all the options available under the rules without any suggestion which is preferable - no different from what a referee could be asked and could give.

Quite a (relatively) subtle change of approach can have quite different consequences!

To me, and I've also been in the situation, it's the difference between the way a Caddie would approach/advise their player (advice is fine so discuss options) as opposed to a Fellow Competitor/Opponent (stay schtum)- or the (passive) approach of a Referree.

And if, instead of asking 'What can I do here?', the FC asks 'What should I do here?' or maybe 'What do I do here?' you may have a bit of problem!

 

[Colin L]

It's the power of words - even little ones.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Indeed - (I advise you to) 'ask me for clarification of the rules given your situation' is me advising my FC. And I cannot advise my FC.

 

[AmandaJR]

A scenario cropped up recently in a team match (foursomes). My match was finished but one of our players in another pairing asked me about the rule regarding hitting a tree with a practice and/or actual swing. I advised accordingly (and I hope correctly) that she had to be careful not to clatter it and potentially improve her lie on the practice swing but could hit it as hard as she liked on the actual one.

Was the advice "illegal" (and correct)?!

 

[duncan mackie]

A scenario cropped up recently in a team match (foursomes). My match was finished but one of our players in another pairing asked me about the rule regarding hitting a tree with a practice and/or actual swing. I advised accordingly (and I hope correctly) that she had to be careful not to clatter it and potentially improve her lie on the practice swing but could hit it as hard as she liked on the actual one.

Was the advice "illegal" (and correct)?!

all fine - she asked for factual advice on the rules, and you gave it.

 

[AmandaJR]

all fine - she asked for factual advice on the rules, and you gave it.

Thanks Duncan. I thought so but another of our team (County Rules Official) said only the captain could give such advice

Weirdly enough my partner had the same scenario earlier and both she and our other player had the rule the wrong way round - ok to hit the tree in practice but not actual swings!

 

[duncan mackie]

Thanks Duncan. I thought so but another of our team (County Rules Official) said only the captain could give such advice

sometimes people jump to the more complex issue and miss the simple one

slightly more interestingly, such a Captain would not only need to be non-playing, but the committee would have to have granted them permissions in the COC, and they would then have to be notified to the committee prior to giving (real) advice as well........but let's not complicate things - your's wasn't an advice situation in the first place ...

 

[Ethan]

the simple answer is that you are not being completely neutral in this situation - did you same the same thing when he was playing all his shots? If not you are making a situation specific comment by asking this question and it's hard to see how this wouldn't influence his choice of shot.

make the comment before teeing off, and respond to a subsequent request for his options - all good

after a player has stated that he's considering taking an unplayable penalty (for example), asking him if he's aware of all his options - again fine.

Are you sure, Duncan? There is a difference between imparting factual info (such as rules or position of a hazard) and suggesting a course of action (I'd drop here, hit a 5 iron, whatever).

In the definitions, it says

"Information on the Rules, distance or matters of public information, such as the position of hazards or the flagstick on the putting green, is not advice."

 

[rulefan]

Are you sure, Duncan? There is a difference between imparting factual info (such as rules or position of a hazard) and suggesting a course of action (I'd drop here, hit a 5 iron, whatever).

In the definitions, it says

"Information on the Rules, distance or matters of public information, such as the position of hazards or the flagstick on the putting green, is not advice."

Duncan is correct. This was not advice, it was telling the player how the rule worked.