Rules - Match Play and Stableford Combined match

[Mossie]

During a recent official club competition over the week-end a player was continually giving his 'partner' (actually his fiancé) advice on where to putt, lining her up when playing a shot etc. We were in a Fourball with her and the other player playing Stableford, myself and this other player (giving her the advice) playing knock-out. What are the rules in this situation for future occasions where this may occur, as obviously the round has been concluded.

 

[Steven Rules]

Can I just get the arrangements straight first? Please confirm or correct me.

A, B, C and D are playing together in a group of 4.

A and B are engaged.

A is playing against C in a match and they are not playing in the stableford competition.

B and D are playing in the stableford competition.

A is 'helping' B in various ways as described in #1.

Have I got it correct?

 

[Colin L]

Or are all four are playing a four ball stableford, A & B (the engaged couple) v C and D and simultaneously
A and C are in a singles match?

If so, then A's giving advice to B in the four ball has no bearing on the match between A and C. But if in the seemingly unlikely event of B's giving A advice in the four ball occurred, that could assist A's play in the match. There would also be the question of C getting advice from D, his four ball partner.

You ask about future occasions. I think the best advice is that of Mr Punch on marriage: "Don't"

 

[Mossie]

Can I just get the arrangements straight first? Please confirm or correct me.

A, B, C and D are playing together in a group of 4.

A and B are engaged.

A is playing against C in a match and they are not playing in the stableford competition.

B and D are playing in the stableford competition.

A is 'helping' B in various ways as described in #1.

Have I got it correct?

Hi, Thanks for the response and should have clarified a bit better .... yes, your ABCD is quite correct

 

[Mossie]

Or are all four are playing a four ball stableford, A & B (the engaged couple) v C and D and simultaneously
A and C are in a singles match?

If so, then A's giving advice to B in the four ball has no bearing on the match between A and C. But if in the seemingly unlikely event of B's giving A advice in the four ball occurred, that could assist A's play in the match. There would also be the question of C getting advice from D, his four ball partner.

You ask about future occasions. I think the best advice is that of Mr Punch on marriage: "Don't"

Hi,

As per Steven Rules above scenario is as follows

A, B, C and D are playing together in a group of 4.

A and B are engaged.

A is playing against C match play and they are not playing in the stableford competition.

B and D are playing in the stableford competition.

A is 'helping' B in various ways as described in #1. (B was not giving A any advice ... to my knowledge and C was not getting any advice from D) Note:- D was not C's 4-ball partner as described above - A & C were playing Matchplay , B & D were playing Stableford.

 

[backwoodsman]

Seems to me that A & C, and B & D just happen to be 4 players on the course at the same time playing two different competitions. A & B have no 'golfing relationship' to each other - even though they are engaged in real life. In terms of golf, A is not B's partner. It seems to me that A is giving 'advice' to B. And B cant ask for advice from anyone other than their caddy. Could A be regarded as B's caddy even though they are playing in a different competition? But what I can't find in the rules (help!) is a prohibition on receiving unasked for advice - that you shouldnt be getting - from someone other than your caddy. (OK, i realise its unlikely it was unsolicited given the nature of the personal relationship).

I'm feel that B should not have been receiving the advice , and probably should be penalised, but I can't find the 'why & wherefore' in the rules

 

[Mossie]

Thanks for that, yes ...all a little murky. I would think A could not be regarded as B's caddy as A is a player ... ??? As a seasoned player A should know better than to give 'unsolicited advice', with the possibility of B (a 'newby') being penalized ... could lead to a very quiet drive home in the car after the game ...ha,ha

 

[rulefan]

During a recent official club competition over the week-end a player was continually giving his 'partner' (actually his fiancé) advice on where to putt, lining her up when playing a shot etc. We were in a Fourball with her and the other player playing Stableford, myself and this other player (giving her the advice) playing knock-out. What are the rules in this situation for future occasions where this may occur, as obviously the round has been concluded.

10.2a. Advice​

During a round, a player must not: Ask anyone for advice, other than the player’s caddie, or

​

10.2a/2 – Player Must Try to Stop Ongoing Advice That Is Given Voluntarily​

If a player gets advice from someone other than their caddie (such as a spectator) without asking for it, they get no penalty. However, if the player continues to get advice from that same person, the player must try to stop that person from giving advice. If the player does not do so, they are treated as asking for that advice and get the penalty under Rule 10.2a.

​

 

[Neilds]

10.2b(2) ​

Getting Help from Any Person Other than Caddie with Line of Play or Other Directional Information.​

During a round, a player must not: Give advice to anyone in the competition who is playing on the course,

Agree with this, but who gets the penalty - The giver or the receiver?

 

[backwoodsman]

10.2a​

During a round, a player must not: Give advice to anyone in the competition who is playing on the course,

10.2b(2)
During a round, a player must not: Give advice to anyone in the competition who is playing on the course,

Questions though...

Is person 'A' a player? - as he is not playing in the competition that B is playing in. If he is, presumably, he get penalised in his own matchplay match. (As he's not playing in the the Stableford that B is playing in.

Also, although, he's playing in a different matchplay match, can he also be B's caddy in the stableford?

 

[rulefan]

My original post was the result of some odd "cut and paste"

See the now edited post

 

[Mossie]

My thoughts again are No, 'A' cannot be a caddy as he is playing in a designated competition. An added note just to clarify ... this was not just 2 x 2 balls (A&B plus C&D) randomly hooking up on the first T and deciding A played C play Matchplay and B played D Stableford ... this was an official Club Competiton structured as such (Stableford was the competition for the main field with 8 Matchplay games being accommodated within the field, with the Matchplay players not entering Stableford scores)

 

[rulefan]

Questions though...

Is person 'A' a player? - as he is not playing in the competition that B is playing in. If he is, presumably, he get penalised in his own matchplay match. (As he's not playing in the the Stableford that B is playing in.

Also, although, he's playing in a different matchplay match, can he also be B's caddy in the stableford?

1) Yes I have removed that. I now reread it as a 'player' in the same competition
2) IMO, 'technically' yes. But there is no evidence that he has been acting as a caddie as defined.

 

[Steven Rules]

Also, although, he's playing in a different matchplay match, can he also be B's caddy in the stableford?

That would just be trying to be too tricky and, in my opinion, against the spirit of 10.3a/2 which says that a player cannot simultaneously play a round and be a caddie.

10.3a/2
Player May Caddie for Another Player When Not Playing a Round

A player in a competition may caddie for another player in the same competition, except when the player is playing their round or when a Local Rule restricts the player from being a caddie.

For example:
*If two players are playing in the same competition but at different times on the same day, they are allowed to caddie for each other.
*In stroke play, if one player in a group withdraws during a round, they may caddie for another player in the group.

 

[backwoodsman]

Thanks all, my curiosity now satisfied. (And, reminder to self, always remember to look at the clarifications.)

 

[Colin L]

Thanks all, my curiosity now satisfied. (And, reminder to self, always remember to look at the clarifications.)

... and that Fourball or Four Ball means a better ball competition.

 

[Steven Rules]

advice on where to putt, lining her up when playing a shot etc

And, of course, even if player A was a caddie (and I think we have established that he was not), there are limits on what even a caddie can do to assist the player in 'lining up' his or her stroke. See 10.2b(1) and 10.2b(4).

 

[rulefan]

And, of course, even if player A was a caddie (and I think we have established that he was not),

I think I agree but there is still a little niggle in my mind. 10.3a/3 refers to the same competition.

 

[Steven Rules]

You mean 10.3a/2. Yes it does refer to the same competition. My focus is on the spirit of the clarification, not necessarily the exact letter of it.

A very fundamental (but I concede not essential) caddying role - carrying, handling or transporting clubs (see Definitions, 10.3a(1), 10.3a/1) - was not being carried out by B. Furthermore 10.3a(1) tells me that if there is doubt about whether someone is performing the role of a caddie, the player should name that person as their caddie.

If I may paraphrase Colin's advice back in #3 about A's actions: this is dodgy; don't do it.

 

[rulie]

I think I agree but there is still a little niggle in my mind. 10.3a/3 refers to the same competition.

And I agree. The T of C could say that anyone playing on the course cannot be a caddie for a player in the competition. But that is unlikely for club events.