Five over par - Pick up

[Old Skier]

The handicap committee are looking at this and thinking of adopting it for our medals:

"Maximum score will be a new, additional form of stroke play where a player’s score for each hole is capped at a maximum set by the Committee.

A player who does not complete a hole – referred to informally as “picking up” – will not be disqualified, but simply get the maximum score for the hole.
Under the CONGU UHS, a competition is eligible for handicapping when the maximum score per hole is set to 5 or more over par. This is to ensure that no player, regardless of handicap, can be credited with less than net double bogey on any hole.
Setting the maximum score at 5 over par means that on a Par 3 hole, a player can pick up once they’ve played 8 shots.
On a Par 4 it will be 9 and a Par 5 it will be 10.
(The net double bogey approach will still be used to generate a gross and net differential.)"

Any feedback from clubs using this would be appreciated.

 

[rosecott]

The handicap committee are looking at this and thinking of adopting it for our medals:

"Maximum score will be a new, additional form of stroke play where a player’s score for each hole is capped at a maximum set by the Committee.

A player who does not complete a hole – referred to informally as “picking up” – will not be disqualified, but simply get the maximum score for the hole.
Under the CONGU UHS, a competition is eligible for handicapping when the maximum score per hole is set to 5 or more over par. This is to ensure that no player, regardless of handicap, can be credited with less than net double bogey on any hole.
Setting the maximum score at 5 over par means that on a Par 3 hole, a player can pick up once they’ve played 8 shots.
On a Par 4 it will be 9 and a Par 5 it will be 10.
(The net double bogey approach will still be used to generate a gross and net differential.)"

Any feedback from clubs using this would be appreciated.

Played the format for the first time yesterday. No issues with the format although the weather might have been kinder - 40 mph wind. One of our Cat 1 players who had expressed concern over the format decided to express his point of view by playing wedges all the way up our 400 yard 1st and picking up after 8 strokes - I'm not sure what that proved. There were no N/Rs as it should be with this format. I think there were only about 6 pick ups for Maximum Score and the general opinion was that it is a sensible option.

 

[duncan mackie]

At 5 over par the damage (to round times) has been done.

The application of the rule is an unnecessary confusion as far as we are concerned.

Most people having such issues will already pick up and NR that hole if things get that bad. To artifically retain that person in the competition seems strange - just run all your comps as stableford, much simpler.

 

[Action jackson]

Yea fine for handicap purposes but if you pick up you cant win comp.

 

[Old Skier]

At 5 over par the damage (to round times) has been done.

The application of the rule is an unnecessary confusion as far as we are concerned.

Most people having such issues will already pick up and NR that hole if things get that bad.

Surley adopting this would result (hopefully) in less NRs

 

[Kellfire]

Will the player be ineligible for winning the competition?

I assume so, imagine if you lost a medal to someone who carded one of these "no returns" because they'd had an absolute blinder over the rest of the round!

 

[duncan mackie]

Yea fine for handicap purposes but if you pick up you cant win comp.

Yes you can, that's the whole point!

 

[Action jackson]

Yes you can, that's the whole point!

Don't like that idea then!

 

[duncan mackie]

Surley adopting this would result (hopefully) in less NRs

Let's make sure we are on the same page....this is what should currently happen
1.Players can still return their card for the competition with a NR for one, or more, holes.
2. It counts for handicap
3. They will be DQ from the results (rule 3.3 c)

 

[rosecott]

Will the player be ineligible for winning the competition?

I assume so, imagine if you lost a medal to someone who carded one of these "no returns" because they'd had an absolute blinder over the rest of the round!

On our first comp using this format, no-one who had a pick up came remotely near the prize money.

On another note, there was general agreement that it helped with pace of play - my understanding is that was one of the reasons for its introduction.

 

[Action jackson]

Let's make sure we are on the same page....this is what should currently happen
1.Players can still return their card for the competition with a NR for one, or more, holes.
2. It counts for handicap
3. They will be DQ from the results (rule 3.3 c)

Correct!

 

[Old Skier]

Let's make sure we are on the same page....this is what should currently happen
1.Players can still return their card for the competition with a NR for one, or more, holes.
2. It counts for handicap
3. They will be DQ from the results (rule 3.3 c)

Unfortunately due to man flu I couldn't attend the county meeting so I'm getting stuff second hand. Looks like I need to speak to county Sec to see what exactly went down.

 

[Orikoru]

I'm not sure I like it to be honest. I think medal is a tougher format than Stableford for just this reason - you have to get the ball in the hole. A nightmare hole can cost you - that's what separates the two formats. If you make a restriction like this, whether it's +5, or double par, then you only serve to make it more similar to Stableford really.

Also it takes away that moment of shock when you look through the scores and see someone carded a 14 or something.

 

[Kellfire]

I'm not sure I like it to be honest. I think medal is a tougher format than Stableford for just this reason - you have to get the ball in the hole. A nightmare hole can cost you - that's what separates the two formats. If you make a restriction like this, whether it's +5, or double par, then you only serve to make it more similar to Stableford really.

Also it takes away that moment of shock when you look through the scores and see someone carded a 14 or something.

Carded a 14 during the club championship a few years back on a reachable par 5. The shanks had me firmly in their grasp that day.

 

[Orikoru]

Carded a 14 during the club championship a few years back on a reachable par 5. The shanks had me firmly in their grasp that day.

Last year in the club champs first round I won the second hole with a 9. The other two chaps got 10 and 14. How we all laughed.

 

[Grant85]

Will the player be ineligible for winning the competition?

I assume so, imagine if you lost a medal to someone who carded one of these "no returns" because they'd had an absolute blinder over the rest of the round!

I assume they are.

I have noted that some clubs have a culture of NRing if you are over your handicap and you lose a ball. Other places people are determined to post a score, even if it is 10 or 15 over their handicap.
I've seen guys hold up the course having lost a ball on the 13th to go back to the tee and being miles over at that point.

Albeit the NR culture may change with the new handicap system as people won't want a load of 8s, 9s and 10s affecting their handicap.

Chances of someone winning, or even playing to handicap, with a 9 or 10 are obviously remote - even if they are off 28. No doubt it might happen the odd day.

 

[Jamesbrown]

If I’ve got a score that is unlikely to win a comp and I’m having a crap hole I’ll pick up on that hole anyway.
No point dragging it out.

 

[Orikoru]

I assume they are.

I have noted that some clubs have a culture of NRing if you are over your handicap and you lose a ball. Other places people are determined to post a score, even if it is 10 or 15 over their handicap.
I've seen guys hold up the course having lost a ball on the 13th to go back to the tee and being miles over at that point.

Albeit the NR culture may change with the new handicap system as people won't want a load of 8s, 9s and 10s affecting their handicap.

Chances of someone winning, or even playing to handicap, with a 9 or 10 are obviously remote - even if they are off 28. No doubt it might happen the odd day.

I think it depends where you are in the round and how well you've played to be honest. If I lost a ball early on I'd go back to the tee as you never what's to come. If I lost a ball on the 15th and I was already well over handicap after a bad round then I might N/R instead.

 

[duncan mackie]

Unfortunately due to man flu I couldn't attend the county meeting so I'm getting stuff second hand. Looks like I need to speak to county Sec to see what exactly went down.

I don't think anything I posted there is new.

The introduction of the maximum score condition for a medal competition will increase the number of players who are listed on the results sheet with a score.
It should either increase POP, or reduce the number of players shown as DQ on the results sheet (either way is completely neutral for their handicap or the calculation of a CSS), as Rosecott has indicated.
I did run a quick view over completed rounds to try to gauge possible impact, but accept that this approach was inherently flawed - I can't tell who may have reached that point and simply decided to NR the hole! However I do know of at least one case where, had this been in play, a player would have been well up in the results (me with an 11 in a 36 hole comp and a good position despite that - the extra 2 shots might have got me some beer tokens!). However, this isn't a reason not to implement IMO.

If you wish to go this route then simply modify stableford to 5 points for a par and you have pretty much the same results outcome (actually it may even be exactly the same) rather than playing around with the fundamental premise of medal play.

 

[Action jackson]

Just all seems a bit pointless really. Nr, move on, job done!