Bogey comps - why are they qualifiers?

Billysboots

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This debate seems to arise annually on these pages after someone has played one of these events and queried its status as a qualifier. And when anyone says they should not be qualifying I am in complete agreement, for two main reasons.

First, the mindset is not the same as a strokeplay event. The aim of a bogey is not to shoot the lowest possible score, it’s to beat the course. If I hit a green in regulation on a shot hole, then my aim is not to make the birdie putt - it’s to avoid a three putt. So I’m quite happy cosying a ten footer up to the hole side. I’m not necessarily trying to hole it.

Second, our starter will always tell us to pick up once we cannot make par/net par. So that means any hole where I could still have made bogey/net bogey is registered on EG for handicap purposes as a double/net double. In short, the score I return may not be the score I could realistically have achieved.

We have the same argument at ours every year. Last year I arrived on a Saturday to play a bogey comp having been assured it would be a non qualifier. When I told it was a qualifier as usual I put my kit back in the car and went home.

Hate the format anyway. Throw into the mix the fact that our committee still maintain they should be qualifiers and I won’t be entering any more of them.
 

wjemather

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A net double bogey putt? Why? Is a net double not the same as a net quad?
The post I was replying to said nothing about nett scores, and implied picking up having failed to make par, so not even holing out for (nett) bogey. Also, nett double-bogey adjustments for handicapping use Course Handicap, so this is what must be referenced when considering when to pick up or carry on playing - a nett double-bogey in the competition (95% Playing Handicap) may be a nett bogey for handicapping.

Double = x2; double-bogey = 2 over par.
Quad = x4; quad-bogey = 4 over par.
 

Troymcclure

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The post I was replying to said nothing about nett scores, and implied picking up having failed to make par, so not even holing out for (nett) bogey. Also, nett double-bogey adjustments for handicapping use Course Handicap, so this is what must be referenced when considering when to pick up or carry on playing - a nett double-bogey in the competition (95% Playing Handicap) may be a nett bogey for handicapping.
You’re right. I wrongly thought the poster was referring to a “nett” double bogey. And I know when a nett double isn’t a nett double in comps. I try explaining it to playing partners when they go to pick up on “that” hole. They just look bemused. Same bemused look as when I explain why their PH is different to what the board says it should be.
Double = x2; double-bogey = 2 over par.
Quad = x4; quad-bogey = 4 over par.
Surely you know I meant for handicap purposes i.e. 0 Stableford points.
 

Billysboots

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What do you infer from this? That the Starter doesn’t understand handicapping or he isn’t aware it’s a qualifier? Or he/Club think pace of play trumps handicap aspirations 😳

There is always a pressure placed on us by our starters to maintain a pace of play, and the one who started our most recent bogey comp, referred to above, simply didn’t understand the implications on handicaps of telling members to pick up if they couldn’t return par/net par on a hole. I know this because I asked him the direct question, and told him if the committee was running the comp as a qualifier then I would be putting out as I would in a stableford. He told me that I must pick up. I turned round, put my kit back in my car and went home.

I have only recently had an exchange of emails with our comp chairman on this very subject and he confirmed that, whilst we will be continuing to run bogey comps as qualifiers, there will be a very explicit instruction to all participants regarding the need to putt out as they would in a stableford. Given this is a conversation I have with them every year, I’m not holding my breath.
 

wjemather

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There is always a pressure placed on us by our starters to maintain a pace of play, and the one who started our most recent bogey comp, referred to above, simply didn’t understand the implications on handicaps of telling members to pick up if they couldn’t return par/net par on a hole. I know this because I asked him the direct question, and told him if the committee was running the comp as a qualifier then I would be putting out as I would in a stableford. He told me that I must pick up. I turned round, put my kit back in my car and went home.

I have only recently had an exchange of emails with our comp chairman on this very subject and he confirmed that, whilst we will be continuing to run bogey comps as qualifiers, there will be a very explicit instruction to all participants regarding the need to putt out as they would in a stableford. Given this is a conversation I have with them every year, I’m not holding my breath.
Going home because your starter is ignorant of the applicable rules seems like a bit of an extreme reaction.

It's no use at all if players are getting contradictory information from people who they view as authorities. Your comps chair needs to prioritise educating your starters and all other people involved in the process (club management, pro shop, etc.).
 

Billysboots

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Going home because your starter is ignorant of the applicable rules seems like a bit of an extreme reaction.

Not really. It’s not uncommon for our starters to give conflicting advice to different groups on the same day, so if I don’t think there’s a level playing field before I even go out then I’m minded not to bother, especially if the format is one I don’t especially enjoy to begin with.

All our starters are committee volunteers, and some are better than others. Some stick to a pre-prepared script, others ad lib their way through it. It’s the latter who cause most of the problems.
 

rulefan

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Not really. It’s not uncommon for our starters to give conflicting advice to different groups on the same day, so if I don’t think there’s a level playing field before I even go out then I’m minded not to bother, especially if the format is one I don’t especially enjoy to begin with.

All our starters are committee volunteers, and some are better than others. Some stick to a pre-prepared script, others ad lib their way through it. It’s the latter who cause most of the problems.
All Starters should be given a script and be told not to divert from it. If they are asked a question that is not in the script and cannot give the definitive answer, they should ask whoever is running the show..
 

Billysboots

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All Starters should be given a script and be told not to divert from it. If they are asked a question that is not in the script and cannot give the definitive answer, they should ask whoever is running the show..

Yes, in an ideal world.
 

Jimbof

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In the CONGU days Bogey was scored differently (hence table in the chart above) to Stableford/Medal in that you were only credited with a 'win' on a hole regardless of whether it was a net birdie or eagle. This was always an issue for low handicappers who felt badly treated as their Nett Diff would not be as good as it would with a Stableford or Medal when scoring a nett eagle (or better). Under WHS bogey is basically scored as a stableford/medal for handicapping purposes and your score is the gross score returned (adjusted for non-completion of a hole or a high score on a hole). This is the reason for the advice doc to prompt players to continue until they've got to Nett Double Bogey before picking up.
 
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