DMD's on phones - I wish they would sort it properly

[Foxholer]

@SLH. You really did get sucked in again! :rofl:

I have certainly seen instances of guys with DMDs standing beside marker posts or sprinkler with distances marked. But that is excusable - with laugh - as 'force of habit'.

The results available with DMDs really are (or should be) available elsewhere but golfers might not wish them out, for any number of reasons - the main one being the time involved.

I certainly played with more confidence, so better, when I got a Laser and had accurate distance to the pin, but it wasn't the DMD that gave me an advantage, it was knowing the distance! That info could have been found by any number of other methods but would almost certainly take longer to establish - in almost all cases..

Very few clubs don't have the LR in place (none that I know of) and it makes sense, imo. to allow them in comps. The R&A's approach is reasonable. I believe Clubs can safely pot a notice aying something the lines of -

Speciliast DMDs are fine - provided they conform.
There are no known Phone DMD Apps tht conform - because non-conforming features are also available on such phones. Unless it can be shown that a Phone DMD App does conform, their use will mean that the applicable Penalties under The Rules must be applied.

 

[chrisd]

Ah well - so no advantage even although 150yd markers can be wrong in which case my pacing to the marker will not do me much good - so I will have to pace to the flag from my ball - which will make me very popular.

iIf the markers are wrong, they are wrong for everyone. If you don't have a legal DMD it's your choice just the same as not using a putter would be. Popularity does come into it


And I'll will have to do some fancy trigonometry if I'm pacing up and down slopes from my ball to the flag and will have to make sure my pacing is consistent and a yard - or at least consistent so I can do a conversion from paces to yds; and unlike most - everyone can't afford one.


No you choose to do it, you don't "have to"

And I must have forgot to mention that I have no issue with their use other than in comps - actually no - I did mention that.

You can't have an "issue" with a fact that they a perfectly legal to use

Oh and no need for a temporary ban because everyone can be trusted to follow the local rule and the issue with phones isn't really an issue at all - which is good.

There is absolutely no need for a temporary ban, just tell everyone that all phone apps are ok or not - get the message across properly

But that's all OK. Because DMDs give no advantage. Sorry for misunderstanding and trying to make a case for avoiding skewing things further from a level playing field - and unfortunate breaking of local rules.

you miss the point deliberately. There is no advantage if something in the game is available to everyone. Cost can't be a factor, some people won't buy the latest gear because of cost. 25 year old clubs could be a disadvantage but that's sport, it can't be the case that, in golf, that everyone is made to use the same make and type of equipment to "level the playing field

And you haven't been rude :

To be fair, it's got pretty close after reading the same old nonsense every time the words DMD's comes up)

 

[bobmac]

SLH, can I ask...do you have and use a sat nav in your car?

 

[Foxholer]

Chris.

I understand, from a reply in an earlier post, that your team was knowingly using a non-compliant device - as well as the opposition though it turns out that the non compliance was not known to them.

If so, would you not consider that your team's deliberate breach of the rule to be cheating?

The R&A/USGA statement is quite clear - and, typically, resilient for future changes.

As it happens, there are no phones/Apps that I know of that are compliant. That doesn't mean there won't be in the future. The flowchart will still be applicable.

There is actually no real need to make it any clearer!

@Bob. All SatNavs are perfectly legal. And everyone who has them is happy to be consider them to be an 'advantage', which is , I believe, SLH's real gripe with their use by some.

 

[chrisd]

Chris.

I understand, from a reply in an earlier post, that your team was knowingly using a non-compliant device - as well as the opposition though it turns out that the non compliance was not known to them.

If so, would you not consider that your team's deliberate breach of the rule to be cheating?

No Fox, quite the opposite in fact. This was a HDID matchplay 4BBB knockout. Our guests used I phones and my partner and I used my Garmin G3. We were a few holes in when we saw what they were using and my partner (MashleyR7) and I spoke to each other and decided not to mention the infringement to them. This was for two reasons, first was that if we mentioned it to them we would have to have pulled them for the clear rules breach and penalised them and also we won the first five holes in a row and took the view that using an illegal DMD wasn't going to influence the result. We did agree as a pair that we wouldn't "pull them" for it even if the match swung against us as, if we saw the transgression, then we should call it straight away and we didn't want to do that.

When I mentioned it we had sewn the match 8 and 7 and it was on the 18th tee when one of them used it in front of me and made a comment about the yardage based on the info from the phone. They absolutely disagreed with my reading of the rules and wasn't ever likely to play them again so decided to invite them to recheck the rules when they got home and let the matter rest.

 

[North Mimms]

This is quite timely actually.

A few weeks ago I was paired with a new member at our club for the medal. During the 1st few holes he pulled out his phone to use as a DMD. I suggested that it was against the rules to use a smart phone so he put it away and on we went. However our next meeting at the club he had asked one of the committee members and they had claimed the phone was fine.

I've got him again on Saturday so I expect he'll have the phone out. Am I wrong?

Unless he's got a very unusual smart phone, you are right, he shouldn't be using it.
re: the uninformed committee member, I suggest you write to the committee, asking them to post a list of all phones apps and models of phone that conform to the R&A flow chart.
It won't take them long- it will be a very very very short list...

(somewhere earlier in this thread there is a link to this flowchart. Maybe print it out for him for saturday and maybe a second copy for him to pass on the committee member)

 

[Foxholer]

No Fox, quite the opposite in fact.

Another mis-read! 'they' became 'we'!

Lucky I loaded my comment with disclaimers this time!

You actually did exactly what I would have done.

Still assert that the Rule needs no further clarification.

Did/will you raise it on HDID?

 

[chrisd]

Did/will you raise it on HDID?

No, I really think that it's one of those "if and when it happens" things.

I really feel that golf clubs could do a lot more to highlight the matter more with posters, emails etc to tell people and if the pro shop would just talk to members about the rule it could be a great sales aid, I'm sure that they would sell more devices as a result. Personally I would vote to make them all legal as I don't see a benefit from using a device that would tell you everything including what your opponent had for breakfast. It wouldn't help the to hit a better shot but it would alleviate the sort of aggro we potentially encountered the other day and perhaps ........... Swinglikehogan would give it a rest at last!

 

[North Mimms]

No, I really think that it's one of those "if and when it happens" things.

I really feel that golf clubs could do a lot more to highlight the matter more with posters, emails etc to tell people and if the pro shop would just talk to members about the rule it could be a great sales aid, I'm sure that they would sell more devices as a result. Personally I would vote to make them all legal as I don't see a benefit from using a device that would tell you everything including what your opponent had for breakfast. It wouldn't help the to hit a better shot but it would alleviate the sort of aggro we potentially encountered the other day and perhaps ........... Swinglikehogan would give it a rest at last!

I agree that making all phone apps legal would make things easier and bring the use of DMDs(to those that want them...) to more players.
However I suspect that that Garmin, Skycaddie and all the rest represent quite a vocal lobby to R&A AGAINST allowing phone apps.

Knowing what the local weather station says was happening 10 miles away, 15 minutes ago has never been any use to me, since the wind goes round in circles on my course!

 

[duncan mackie]

Unless he's got a very unusual smart phone, you are right, he shouldn't be using it.
re: the uninformed committee member, I suggest you write to the committee, asking them to post a list of all phones apps and models of phone that conform to the R&A flow chart.
It won't take them long- it will be a very very very short list...

(somewhere earlier in this thread there is a link to this flowchart. Maybe print it out for him for saturday and maybe a second copy for him to pass on the committee member)

all so true

when the 'clarification' was issued I will admit to binning it and sending it out a note saying 'I am not aware of any current Smartphone model that complies with the rules if used as a DMD - anyone that has one and believes otherwise should contact me' - nobody did.

just to be clear, it's not the 'apps' that cause the problem, it's the hardware sensors - thermometer, barometric pressure, compass and tilt.

I have no doubt that at some point there will be a model on the market that has none of the above, and can run a DMD application - it may even exist now - but I'm not aware of it.

 

[Hobbit]

"Ban everything till its sorted."

It has been sorted, it's just that some people don't like the resolution and want it diluting to allow iphone type apps.

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

Personally, I have no problem with DMD's, but I hope that they don't allow phones in the future. I already dislike seeing people on their phone on the course, and being allowed to have them out for use as a DMD will only encourage people to text/take phone calls.

For the record, I don't own one, don't know if I will buy one, but see no problem with them. Accept that they DO give an advantage, but mainly over lazy people like myself who have a yardage book, but I'm not going to pace up and down and side to side to work out an exact distance.

 

[North Mimms]

I have no doubt that at some point there will be a model on the market that has none of the above, and can run a DMD application - it may even exist now - but I'm not aware of it.

plus a bit of gaffer tape = legal phone

 

[duncan mackie]

View attachment 6562 plus a bit of gaffer tape View attachment 6563 = legal phone

last time I looked use of a tape measure on the course was a breach of 14-3........

 

[cookelad]

No, I really think that it's one of those "if and when it happens" things.

I really feel that golf clubs could do a lot more to highlight the matter more with posters, emails etc to tell people and if the pro shop would just talk to members about the rule it could be a great sales aid, I'm sure that they would sell more devices as a result. Personally I would vote to make them all legal as I don't see a benefit from using a device that would tell you everything including what your opponent had for breakfast. It wouldn't help the to hit a better shot but it would alleviate the sort of aggro we potentially encountered the other day and perhaps ........... Swinglikehogan would give it a rest at last!

Just read the R&A Flowchart page and I agree the clubs should be doing more to make the exact ruling known. I'll admit to having used my phone as in the past (although I can't remember it having a compass or weather app) and like Chris' opponent I was told by a playing partner that phones couldn't be used that way and dismissed it as someone making stuff up! - if it was illegal why would so-and-so make the app? - obviously I know better now.

Similar to Chrisd I played with someone over the weekend who I'm reasonably sure was using his phone as a DMD but only sporadically so could easily have been checking messages/emails (which is legal apparently!) we were both playing pretty badly and a convenient conversation didn't come up, so I never raised the issue (which in the context of the thread - spreading the word - is probably wrong) as I wasn't sure what he was using his phone for.

Bottom line for me - Clubs and the R&A/USGA (and the app producing companies) should be making it more known that phones can't be used as a Distance Measuring Device in competitions.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

SLH, can I ask...do you have and use a sat nav in your car?

No - but I invented it!

 

[North Mimms]

last time I looked use of a tape measure on the course was a breach of 14-3........

Just as well- I was having trouble sourcing the phone in the picture!

 

[doublebogey7]

last time I looked use of a tape measure on the course was a breach of 14-3........

Is a tape measure not just a form of DMD.

For what it is worth my view is that DMD's should be allowed in competition but to make it crystal clear the R&A should produce a list of conforming devices just as they do for balls and clubs.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

For the record, I don't own one, don't know if I will buy one, but see no problem with them. Accept that they DO give an advantage, but mainly over lazy people like myself who have a yardage book, but I'm not going to pace up and down and side to side to work out an exact distance.

Oh thank you, thank you, thank you CH - that's all I wanted to hear from soneone - anyone. So I'll now shut up on this (no doubt to most folks relief), as I know I won't win (though I am denying that I have lost )

I think clubs could and should do more to make sure that players do not have any excuse for claiming ignorance over any DMD - phone app or dedicated. So please sort it clubs.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Is a tape measure not just a form of DMD.

For what it is worth my view is that DMD's should be allowed in competition but to make it crystal clear the R&A should produce a list of conforming devices just as they do for balls and clubs.

...and players will have to start calling foul on FC and PPs using non-conforming devices. Easiest way to apply the rule is for any player wishing to use a DMD or phone app to get a certificate from their club confirming that the device they are using conforms. Easy, quick and simple.