Declaring a ball lost

[HawkeyeMS]

If I had a quid for every person I have had to tell this year that there is no such thing as declaring a ball lost I would have about, well, er, £23 It seems to be every week I have to explain it to someone but two incidents stick out.

A couple of weeks ago one of my FCs hit his ball in the clag and then hits a provisional and we go off to find his first. As we're walking up to the area it should be in he says to me "don't bother too much, I'm declaring it lost, I just want to find it as it's a decent ball". Queue, conversation about how a ball becomes lost.

Then there was yesterday, I hit my drive on 16 into the long grass and my provisional in the fairway and went to have a look for the first with one of my FCs. After about a minute it became clear it wasn't in a place I'd want to find it so I called off the search just as our other FC arrives at the area after playing his ball (and faffing a bit). I told him to leave it and he says "I'll just have a quick look while you go to your ball" and walks into the rough. I told him I don't want it found and he said "you've already declared it lost so I might as well see if I can find it". Queue, conversation about how a ball becomes lost.

Does anyone else find themselves repeating this rule or is it just the fine folk at RAGC who struggle with the concept?

:sbox:

 

[pbrown7582]

Its a common occurance i believe the same will happen at most clubs length and breath of the country most weekends

 

[bladeplayer]

Has happened a few times , i remember one time playing with 2 strangers ,

guy hits it in the long stuff , declares a provisional and hits a good one , the conversation between the 2 of them on the way over to look was ,

"you might be better not finding the first one" to which the reply was , "sure il see how its lying , i have the option of the prov if its not playable"

i just mentioned "just so you know before we start looking , if you find it , its the ball in play & the prov is out of play , you do know that? to which the reply was... wait for it

" i can deem my ball unplayable at any time anywhere on the course and play the other ball ,do you know that ?"

I explained i did indeed know that , but it was not relevant to the discussion we were having in any way ,

"Ok well ill call it lost then , but i want to look for it as its a new ball " ,

I said "if you want to do that then you may go forward and play your prov and come back and look for it as its out of play then "


i was then treated to a load of expletives as to how silly the rules were and told its people like me that is why "ordinary" people dont take up golf . we take it too seriously ..

His mate did apologise in fairness and made some excuses for him ...

 

[Maninblack4612]

I know it's the rule, but what difference would it make if the rules allowed you to declare it lost as soon as you saw where it went, as long as you did it before you started looking for it. What's the difference, anyway, between playing the provisional once you know the original is unplayable and playing it when you can see that if you find it it's likely to be unplayable.

 

[bladeplayer]

I know it's the rule, but what difference would it make if the rules allowed you to declare it lost as soon as you saw where it went, as long as you did it before you started looking for it. What's the difference, anyway, between playing the provisional once you know the original is unplayable and playing it when you can see that if you find it it's likely to be unplayable.

Just re tee or drop and dont declare a provisional job done , but you now have to accept the result of the 3 off the tee , good or bad ..

There are rules options for unplayables, unplayable and un findable (thats probably not a word i know) are 2 totally different things

 

[pbrown7582]

That makes it single player betterball? Where would you draw the line? Someone hits wrong side of fairway on a dogleg so hets 2nd chance?

 

[atticusfinch]

I always use such cases as a teaching moment to explain that some words in the rules are terms of art which are defined in the rules, not in the OED. It helps emphasize the importance of reading the rules carefully and literally.

 

[Imurg]

Woah the Boy...Hold the phone..!

Are you telling me that you can't declare a ball lost...?

 

[North Mimms]

I know it's the rule, but what difference would it make if the rules allowed you to declare it lost as soon as you saw where it went, as long as you did it before you started looking for it. What's the difference, anyway, between playing the provisional once you know the original is unplayable and playing it when you can see that if you find it it's likely to be unplayable.

I don't quite follow this, but it might just be the way you've phrased it.

So player hits Ball A into the clag.
Plays a declared provisional B.

They decide that ball A (without looking) is going to be in such clag as to be unplayable, so decline to look and trot off to play ball B
But if they decide to look, find ball A and it is unplayble, they can't then play ball B (it was out of play the moment they found ball A)
Surely they have to go back to tee and play ball C...?

Or have I got that all wrong?

 

[duncan mackie]

His mate did apologise in fairness and made some excuses for him ...

was that before or after you pointed out he had a 2 shot penalty for giving his mate advice? :rofl:

 

[duncan mackie]

I know it's the rule, but what difference would it make if the rules allowed you to declare it lost as soon as you saw where it went, as long as you did it before you started looking for it. What's the difference, anyway, between playing the provisional once you know the original is unplayable and playing it when you can see that if you find it it's likely to be unplayable.

With regard to the underlined bit, the answer is that once you know it's unplayable you can't play a provisional. In addition to that you can't play a ball provisionally on your ball being unplayable either - only lost or OOB.

bladeplayer has covered the other bit - basically you can.

 

[North Mimms]

I racked up a cricket score by falling foul of the unplayable /lost confusion.

Hit my first ball into knee deep clag.
Declared a provisional in case I couldn't find it , and hooked provisonal into hideous bunker.
Decided that I'd better hope to find first ball, which I did. No useful option of dropping either within 2 club lengths or ball on line. Instead of using my brain to realise that the ball in bunker wasn't my other option, I tried to hit it out of the clag.
And tried and and tried and tried...

After carding a 12 (that is a cricket score if you are Alistair cook) only thanks to sinking a monster putt to avoid a 13, the red mist cleared and I realised that I had had the option of declaring my original ball unplayable and going back to tee to (hopefully) hit another one right down the middle.

 

[North Mimms]

And yes Hawkeye- someone declares a ball lost in my hearing every month or so...

 

[Maninblack4612]

Think there's some confusion here.

Situation 1, you hit it into the rough which may be heavy or light. You hit a provisional which goes down the middle. You get to where ball no. 1 is and see it's almost certain to be knee deep in thick rough and unplayable. You therefore decide not to look for it and play the provisional.

Situation 2, you hit it into the rough which may be heavy or light. You hit a provisional which goes down the middle. You get to where ball no. 1 is, look for it, and find it in an unplayable lie, or a FC "helpfully" finds it. You then have no option but to take a drop or go back to the tee.

In situation no. 1 you have virtually played a provisional for a lie that turned out to be unplayable. seems a bit unfair that, if someone finds it you have to do this when, if deeming it lost were an option, you could have played the provisional (and searched for the original)

 

[duncan mackie]

Think there's some confusion here.

Situation 1, you hit it into the rough which may be heavy or light. You hit a provisional which goes down the middle. You get to where ball no. 1 is and see it's almost certain to be knee deep in thick rough and unplayable. You therefore decide not to look for it and play the provisional.

Situation 2, you hit it into the rough which may be heavy or light. You hit a provisional which goes down the middle. You get to where ball no. 1 is, look for it, and find it in an unplayable lie, or a FC "helpfully" finds it. You then have no option but to take a drop or go back to the tee.

In situation no. 1 you have virtually played a provisional for a lie that turned out to be unplayable. seems a bit unfair that, if someone finds it you have to do this when, if deeming it lost were an option, you could have played the provisional (and searched for the original)

the point is that in playing the provisional rather than 3 off the tee you would be balancing the result of the provisional shot against the possibility of gaining a better result from finding and playing the original ball. Once you know where the alternative is the decision becomes easy relative to the player who doesn't play a provisional and finds his ball in a tricky spot - he doesn't know where he may hit his next shot from the tee or from that lie!

The ruling bodies do not like provisional balls - but they are a necessary evil (in the eyes of the rules) to keep the game flowing in certain situations.

 

[Val]

I don't quite follow this, but it might just be the way you've phrased it.

So player hits Ball A into the clag.
Plays a declared provisional B.

They decide that ball A (without looking) is going to be in such clag as to be unplayable, so decline to look and trot off to play ball B
But if they decide to look, find ball A and it is unplayble, they can't then play ball B (it was out of play the moment they found ball A)
Surely they have to go back to tee and play ball C...?

Or have I got that all wrong?

You've got it correct almost, they don't play ball c it's ball a ie the original ball, you can't change the ball unless it's been damaged

 

[duncan mackie]

You've got it correct almost, they don't play ball c it's ball a ie the original ball, you can't change the ball unless it's been damaged

you have it very wrong when proceeding under rule 28 with regard to ball A the player is perfectly entitled to substitute ball C... not, I suspect, that that was what North Mimms was meaning when designating balls for clarity!

 

[North Mimms]

you have it very wrong when proceeding under rule 28 with regard to ball A the player is perfectly entitled to substitute ball C.

That's interesting Duncan.
I actually would play Ball A, back on the tee, but used the term C to differentiate between provisional B and original A where it landed in the clag. So I was right by accident!

 

[CMAC]

After about a minute it became clear it wasn't in a place I'd want to find it so I called off the search just as our other FC arrives at the area after playing his ball (and faffing a bit). I told him to leave it and he says "I'll just have a quick look while you go to your ball" and walks into the rough. I told him I don't want it found and he said "you've already declared it lost so I might as well see if I can find it".

this raises another point, I didn't think you could declare the search over and tell fc's not to look.

 

[chrisd]

this raises another point, I didn't think you could declare the search over and tell fc's not to look.

You can't tell them not to look but mostly I find a "I'm giving it up" will stop FC's from walking around in deep cack for long. If they want to look for 5 minutes, playing your provisional, if it's beyond where your other ball is thought to be, makes your provisional as the ball in play