Declaring "Ball in play" instead of "provisional"?

[cliveb]

My experience is that a large number of club players don't bother to declare provisionals. There's a kind of implicit understanding that unless we see a ball obviously sailing OOB, any second ball played after a wild hit will be a provisional.

Many (myself included) make a point of explicitly stating "I'm playing 3 off the tee, this isn't a provisional" to avoid any possible misunderstanding. I personally do declare provisionals, but it doesn't irritate me if others don't when it's obvious that a provisional is the sensible action; I just ask them to confirm it.

Since this behaviour is so widespread, perhaps the rule is at odds with reality? Could it be that the rule should state that playing a second ball defaults to being a provisional unless the player states that he's taking S&D? There's probably a heap of reasons why this wouldn't work, so I'm sure one of the experts will explain why.

 

[Slab]

I usually say something (both to avoid questions and to ingrain the decision in my head) and it’ll be either ‘this is my 3rd‘or ‘I’m hitting 3offthe tee’
The course is far too windy use the ‘P’ word in any form when playing a 3rd

‘this isn’t a provisional’ can easily be heard as ‘this is a provisional’ in a 3 club wind when PP’s milling on the tee, all they really hear is 'provisional'

 

[chrisd]

Did you consider trying the oft-touted (but generally pointless) advice in this situation of waving a rule book &/or betting your house on the outcome

Not on this occasion, i just said privately to the player that i didn't want an argument with the other person but to check when we get in as I'm certain he's wrong.

He did that, and told us both together in the car park as we were putting our gear away. The other guy didn't say anything.

 

[Steven Rules]

I would see on a somewhat frequent basis, players keeping their options open. Player says nothing. Hits the second ball.

On a very frequent basis (i.e. always) if I see a player getting ready to hit a second ball and they haven't said anything, I always say something like: "Is this a provisional, Fred?" It is easy to do and I have never encountered a situation where it has caused offence or grief.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Except, like a couple of weeks ago, when a ruling was needed for one of our players. He asked if the situation his ball had landed in, was he allowed a free drop, or whether it was a penalty drop. One of our group insisted it would be a penalty drop, i said it was, for certain a free drop and explained why . The other guy was absolutely adamant it was a penalty drop and would not accept my reasoned judgement, and because the other guy was very loud and persuasive the player went with his argument and took relief under penalty.

When we got in he sought an answer and i was right (which i was absolutely certain of) but the other guy was very loud and persuasive.

…and I hope he will in time apologise and have the decency to thank you for educating him on a rule about which he was mistaken

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

On a very frequent basis (i.e. always) if I see a player getting ready to hit a second ball and they haven't said anything, I always say something like: "Is this a provisional, Fred?" It is easy to do and I have never encountered a situation where it has caused offence or grief.

Just what I do. Except I’ll sometimes ask “what is it you are doing”. And if the reply is “playing another ball”, I’ll ask “are you sure…?”

 

[bobmac]

…and I hope he will in time apologise and have the decency to thank you for educating him on a rule about which he was mistaken

I wouldn't hold my breath.
People rarely like to be told they are wrong and this forum is a perfect example.

 

[_MH_]

Thanks all. That all makes immediate sense. And confirmation that the decision is made before you hit the ball (which again seems obvious in hindsight). No hedging your bets, but hope your playing partners don't look too hard if you declared it a provisional and then striped it.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Thanks all. That all makes immediate sense. And confirmation that the decision is made before you hit the ball (which again seems obvious in hindsight). No hedging your bets, but hope your playing partners don't look too hard if you declared it a provisional and then striped it.

You can ask your playing partners to not bother looking for your original ball if you think playing your provisional is preferable for you. Though remember that whatever you may ask, if a ball is spotted in the vicinity of where your original ball might be you must go to it and if it is your ball then that is the ball in play and your provisional is then dead.

And also in a match and whatever you might want to do, your opponents may well still choose to look for your original ball and you have to simply accept their right to do so. If they find it, your provisional is dead.

 

[Backsticks]

On a very frequent basis (i.e. always) if I see a player getting ready to hit a second ball and they haven't said anything, I always say something like: "Is this a provisional, Fred?" It is easy to do and I have never encountered a situation where it has caused offence or grief.

The correcting of rules breaches I now dont do, wouldnt really be the provisional ball scenario. As I say, people just do what they want there.

On the non correcting, and breach of responsibility, I have come around to the idea that it is more equitable to just let things flow. If a rule breach were once in a blue moon, then a correction seems equitable. But given that so few know the rules well enough not to have at least one breach in each group every round, it appears better to me not to disrupt that simply because I am one if no more than a dozen in the field of 100+ who would have read the rules, and feel a responsibility to know them. It is bad luck on the player I would be correcting.

 

[chrisd]

…and I hope he will in time apologise and have the decency to thank you for educating him on a rule about which he was mistaken

Not much chance of that, but I'm not too worried so long as next time we play together he listens to my view before insisting he's right. I think when we learned the answer he just shrugged his shoulders and that was it.

I can't remember exactly his reason for saying it wasn't a free drop but it was pretty ludicrous.

 

[rulefan]

Except, like a couple of weeks ago, when a ruling was needed for one of our players. He asked if the situation his ball had landed in, was he allowed a free drop, or whether it was a penalty drop. One of our group insisted it would be a penalty drop, i said it was, for certain a free drop and explained why . The other guy was absolutely adamant it was a penalty drop and would not accept my reasoned judgement, and because the other guy was very loud and persuasive the player went with his argument and took relief under penalty.

When we got in he sought an answer and i was right (which i was absolutely certain of) but the other guy was very loud and persuasive.

Would he have dropped in the same place in both situations (ie was the relief area the same)? Could he have played two balls?

 

[chrisd]

Would he have dropped in the same place in both situations (ie was the relief area the same)? Could he have played two balls?

It was a difficult drop for sure but as he took a penalty relief I guess it didn't matter.

 

[rulefan]

It was a difficult drop for sure but as he took a penalty relief I guess it didn't matter.

Just idle curiosity but what was he taking relief from?

 

[chrisd]

Just idle curiosity but what was he taking relief from?

So, we have several water streams that run either between wood, or concrete channels and you're not in the PA unless the ball is in, or touching, the wood or concrete channels. The red stakes only indicate the presence of a PA but on this, and many other holes, do not define it. The players ball was sitting almost on top of the sleeper on the downslope but definitely not touching it, and was not plugged.

So the player would have had to straddle the stream, and stand on the top of the sleeper to address his ball and it would be more than likely that he also would hit the sleeper with his club before contacting the ball, as the ball was about an inch from touching the sleeper.

 

[rulefan]

So, we have several water streams that run either between wood, or concrete channels and you're not in the PA unless the ball is in, or touching, the wood or concrete channels. The red stakes only indicate the presence of a PA but on this, and many other holes, do not define it. The players ball was sitting almost on top of the sleeper on the downslope but definitely not touching it, and was not plugged.

So the player would have had to straddle the stream, and stand on the top of the sleeper to address his ball and it would be more than likely that he also would hit the sleeper with his club before contacting the ball, as the ball was about an inch from touching the sleeper.

Thanks. I guess the other guy was misreading rule 17.1. As it happens the relief areas would have been different, may be by some distance.

 

[chrisd]

Thanks. I guess the other guy was misreading rule 17.1. As it happens the relief areas would have been different, may be by some distance.

It was the sort of situation where he said he'd been told blah blah but his argument was all about "fair play" or something similar. My take was that the ball was still wholly in the General Area and he couldn't swing his club without hitting the sleeper and without standing in the PA.

 

[IanM]

Correcting breaches is a funny one. Ever told someone, "that's over 3 mins now?"


Post change, I once got the reply, "Well smart-a , you get 5 minutes!!"

 

[rulefan]

It was the sort of situation where he said he'd been told blah blah but his argument was all about "fair play" or something similar. My take was that the ball was still wholly in the General Area and he couldn't swing his club without hitting the sleeper and without standing in the PA.

If he really knew the rules he would know that Rule 17 includes - A player may stand in a penalty area to play a ball outside the penalty area, including after taking relief from the penalty area.

 

[NearHull]

Slight drift but..

I am interested in the OP information that the red stakes indicated a PA but did not define it. We have similar markers for two areas of OOB where white stakes with black tops indicate a nearby OOB but do not define the OOB. Do the red stakes in OP‘s query need to have a means of indicating that there are not defining the PA?