Declaring "Ball in play" instead of "provisional"?

[rulefan]

Slight drift but..

I am interested in the OP information that the red stakes indicated a PA but did not define it. We have similar markers for two areas of OOB where white stakes with black tops indicate a nearby OOB but do not define the OOB. Do the red stakes in OP‘s query need to have a means of indicating that there are not defining the PA?

It would be useful but strictly only needs a Local Rule. A common convention is green tops.

 

[chrisd]

Slight drift but..

I am interested in the OP information that the red stakes indicated a PA but did not define it. We have similar markers for two areas of OOB where white stakes with black tops indicate a nearby OOB but do not define the OOB. Do the red stakes in OP‘s query need to have a means of indicating that there are not defining the PA?

The holes, all bar one, have red stakes that are only to show where the PA is, but don't define them and that definition is a local rule on the score card

 

[backwoodsman]

A follow up (a twist perhaps?) on the original query. We know that a provisional is only a provisional after you declare it to be one.
But, can you withdraw a statement of playing a provisional - and thereby 'declare' that a ball is to be the ball in play and not a provisional?.

Scenario: You belt your tee shot into the bundu. "I'm not likely to find that. I'm playing a provisional" you say quite clearly. You put a new ball on the the tee, then think better of things and say "Actually, I don't want this to be a provisional. It will be the ball in play". And then hit it. So, status of the second ball??

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

The correcting of rules breaches I now dont do, wouldnt really be the provisional ball scenario. As I say, people just do what they want there.

On the non correcting, and breach of responsibility, I have come around to the idea that it is more equitable to just let things flow. If a rule breach were once in a blue moon, then a correction seems equitable. But given that so few know the rules well enough not to have at least one breach in each group every round, it appears better to me not to disrupt that simply because I am one if no more than a dozen in the field of 100+ who would have read the rules, and feel a responsibility to know them. It is bad luck on the player I would be correcting.

As often I do when debates such as this ‘rage’ I look to see what the pioneers of our game thought on the matter as that will usually reflect (having formed) my own approach and practice. And so again looking to Harry Vardon from 1905…addressing all golfers…

Obtain a thorough knowledge of the rules of the game, always play strictly according to them, and adhere rigidly to the etiquette of golf. When you insist upon the rules being applied to yourself, even to your own disadvantage, you are in a stronger position for demanding that your opponent shall also have the same respect for them. When play is always according to the rules, with no favour shown on either side, the players know exactly where they are. When the rules are occasionally neglected, difficulties and dissatisfaction constantly ensue.

And so as it was then so IMO should it be today.

 

[doublebogey7]

A follow up (a twist perhaps?) on the original query. We know that a provisional is only a provisional after you declare it to be one.
But, can you withdraw a statement of playing a provisional - and thereby 'declare' that a ball is to be the ball in play and not a provisional?.

Scenario: You belt your tee shot into the bundu. "I'm not likely to find that. I'm playing a provisional" you say quite clearly. You put a new ball on the the tee, then think better of things and say "Actually, I don't want this to be a provisional. It will be the ball in play". And then hit it. So, status of the second ball??

No you cannot change the designation of a provisional by merely stated it. The Provisional will become the ball in play, either after the oroginal ball has become lost, is found out of bounds, or the provional ball is played from a spot further forward than where the original is thought to be. The original ball becomes lost if it has not be found within 3 minutes of you, your caddie or your playing partner beginning searching for it. Edit: Misread OP so ignore my answer. Of course a player may change their mind before hitting a second ball from the tea.

 

[rulefan]

No you cannot change the designation of a provisional by merely stated it. The Provisional will become the ball in play, either after the oroginal ball has become lost, is found out of bounds, or the provional ball is played from a spot further forward than where the original is thought to be. The original ball becomes lost if it has not be found within 3 minutes of you, your caddie or your playing partner beginning searching for it.

Are you sure? The post refers to the status of the second ball before a stroke has been made at it.

"You put a new ball on the the tee, then think better of things ...."

 

[Backsticks]

As often I do when debates such as this ‘rage’ I look to see what the pioneers of our game thought on the matter as that will usually reflect (having formed) my own approach and practice. And so again looking to Harry Vardon from 1905…addressing all golfers…

Obtain a thorough knowledge of the rules of the game, always play strictly according to them, and adhere rigidly to the etiquette of golf. When you insist upon the rules being applied to yourself, even to your own disadvantage, you are in a stronger position for demanding that your opponent shall also have the same respect for them. When play is always according to the rules, with no favour shown on either side, the players know exactly where they are. When the rules are occasionally neglected, difficulties and dissatisfaction constantly ensue.

And so as it was then so IMO should it be today.

Harry didnt live in the real world by the looks of it. 'Obtain a thorough knowledge of the rules...'. Nobody, effectively, does that. A major flaw in the rules of golf is that they expect you to know them.

 

[Colin L]

Harry didnt live in the real world by the looks of it. 'Obtain a thorough knowledge of the rules...'. Nobody, effectively, does that. A major flaw in the rules of golf is that they expect you to know them.

Sorry, but that is a flaw in the player not in the rules.

 

[Colin L]

No you cannot change the designation of a provisional by merely stated it. The Provisional will become the ball in play, either after the oroginal ball has become lost, is found out of bounds, or the provional ball is played from a spot further forward than where the original is thought to be. The original ball becomes lost if it has not be found within 3 minutes of you, your caddie or your playing partner beginning searching for it.

As Newby points out, backwoodsman was asking about changing his mind before the stroke is made which is, of course, ok. The status of his ball is what he last said it would be before playing it.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

The correcting of rules breaches I now dont do, wouldnt really be the provisional ball scenario. As I say, people just do what they want there.

On the non correcting, and breach of responsibility, I have come around to the idea that it is more equitable to just let things flow. If a rule breach were once in a blue moon, then a correction seems equitable. But given that so few know the rules well enough not to have at least one breach in each group every round, it appears better to me not to disrupt that simply because I am one if no more than a dozen in the field of 100+ who would have read the rules, and feel a responsibility to know them. It is bad luck on the player I would be correcting.

I’ve said on here and been told I am wrong that when playing in a comp, you are playing to a different set of rules to many of the other players. And that’s before you get into how a players handicap index has been ‘earned’

So many people do not know even the basic rules that any competition is mostly a lottery. You might as well draw raffle tickets.

 

[Crow]

I’ve said on here and been told I am wrong that when playing in a comp, you are playing to a different set of rules to many of the other players. And that’s before you get into how a players handicap index has been ‘earned’

So many people do not know even the basic rules that any competition is mostly a lottery. You might as well draw raffle tickets.

This lack of rules knowledge is one of golf's little frustrations.

The way I try and deal with it is to think that everyone in the competition has acquired their handicap playing to their knowledge of the rules.
Even if there are numerous variations of the rules being played to across the course, the handicaps of all golfers will be equitable, assuming that there are no out and out cheats!

 

[cliveb]

As Newby points out, backwoodsman was asking about changing his mind before the stroke is made which is, of course, ok. The status of his ball is what he last said it would be before playing it.

That's fair enough on the tee, since a ball played from the teeing ground isn't in play until you make a stroke.

But what about after you've hit a wild second shot from the fairway?
Isn't the act of dropping the ball the thing that puts it into play? Can you still change your mind after dropping it but before playing it?
(I'm thinking about the scenario where you forget to declare a provisional before dropping the ball, then wish to correct your forgetfulness).

 

[Backsticks]

Sorry, but that is a flaw in the player not in the rules.

When 99% of golfers havent read the rules, yet play the game withe rules assuming they are playing according to the rules, then the rules are the problem for me.
Or not - roughly according to the rules is how the circle is squared in practice.

 

[rulefan]

That's fair enough on the tee, since a ball played from the teeing ground isn't in play until you make a stroke.

But what about after you've hit a wild second shot from the fairway?
Isn't the act of dropping the ball the thing that puts it into play? Can you still change your mind after dropping it but before playing it?
(I'm thinking about the scenario where you forget to declare a provisional before dropping the ball, then wish to correct your forgetfulness).

Making the stroke is the determinant in such a case. There is nothing in the rules to the contrary.

 

[rulie]

When 99% of golfers havent read the rules, yet play the game withe rules assuming they are playing according to the rules, then the rules are the problem for me.
Or not - roughly according to the rules is how the circle is squared in practice.

The Rules are just words on a piece of paper, and you're blaming them for players not reading them?

 

[doublebogey7]

Are you sure? The post refers to the status of the second ball before a stroke has been made at it.

"You put a new ball on the the tee, then think better of things ...."

Yes apologies mis-read post ignore mine.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Sorry, but that is a flaw in the player not in the rules.

Though to be fair, the Rules Appendix of my 1925 edition of Vardon’s book stretches to all of 26 pages, including 9 pages of special rules for different formats, plus pages for definitions, club design, stroke allowance and recommendations for Local Rules. The basic rules of the game I.e. Rules 1-36 take up all of 12 pages. You’d think we play a different game. Maybe we should take these 26 pages and just correct or remove what is now wrong, but not add anything - then have us all read and understand these 26 pages.

(I’m only half kidding)

 

[Steven Rules]

Isn't the act of dropping the ball the thing that puts it into play? Can you still change your mind after dropping it but before playing it?
(I'm thinking about the scenario where you forget to declare a provisional before dropping the ball, then wish to correct your forgetfulness).

The announcement must be made before the stroke is made. Rule 18.3b. (i.e. it can be after dropping it but before playing it)

 

[Orikoru]

I would see on a somewhat frequent basis, players keeping their options open. Player says nothing. Hits the second ball. If the first ball is found and advantageous to play it, nobody will ever be the party pooper and insist the player play the first ball. If not found, then the second ball is played as if it were a provisional.

Absolutely. Most people hit a ball that everyone assumes is a provisional - they might say so, or they might imply it by saying they're hitting another one or reloading or whatever. Even though it's against what the rule says (that you have to state 'provisional'), I think people now assume provisional because that's the case 95% of the time.

Once they've cracked the provisional down the centre they'll just tell everyone they're abandoning the first one anyway and that they don't want it looked for.

 

[chellie]

Absolutely. Most people hit a ball that everyone assumes is a provisional - they might say so, or they might imply it by saying they're hitting another one or reloading or whatever. Even though it's against what the rule says (that you have to state 'provisional'), I think people now assume provisional because that's the case 95% of the time.

Once they've cracked the provisional down the centre they'll just tell everyone they're abandoning the first one anyway and that they don't want it looked for.

Doesn't happen with anyone I've played with. Male or female.