Time looking for a ball

[Orikoru]

It would be pretty clear they'd be expected to be in the same area, if you searched the same area for both balls.

Whereas if you sliced the first one right, and carved the provisional left, then it is fair to say they are in different areas. Or if one ball was duffed down the right 100 yards, while the next ball was hit down the right 150/200 yards, they'd be expected to be in different areas.

I think beyond what the rule states, it is best to rely on the golfers integrity to understand when then are looking in the same area for both balls. If the rules went further and stated the expected area is a 10m by 10m grid, and the overlap in search area must be no more than 2m, then it would start to become ridiculous

My comment was a follow-up to 'how do you define same area' though. You may think they're in the same area, but if you eventually find them both and one was 20 yards longer and 20 yards further right, then technically they are not in the same area perhaps? Since it isn't defined.

 

[Swango1980]

My comment was a follow-up to 'how do you define same area' though. You may think they're in the same area, but if you eventually find them both and one was 20 yards longer and 20 yards further right, then technically they are not in the same area perhaps? Since it isn't defined.

But that is irrelevant. Because you need to effectively define the area before you find the balls. So, there is no point in trying to define "same area" once the balls have been found.

I could have hit the balls into the same area, yet one could have smacked a tree, and ended up 80 yards away from where I expected. If I didn't know that, I effectively only have 3 minutes to look for both balls. I don't have 3 minutes to look for one, and another 3 minutes to look elsewhere, on the off chance the ball was not where I expected it to be.

 

[Steve Wilkes]

I think when this scenario happens you will know if they are separate searches or not
"I'm going to look for my first ball first in this area" - 3 mins
"3 mins are up, going look for my provisional in that area now" - another 3 mins
If you then still look in the area you searched for the 1st ball, tough!, time up already for both balls after the 1st 3 mins
If you look for the 2nd/Provisional in a different area with no crossover area with the 1st search, another 3 mins
I'm not sure how there could be any grey area in these searches, but happy and looking forward to be proven wrong

 

[chrisd]

So, you hit your first and second ball into the rough right and look for your first ball for 3 minutes but don't find it. You then decide to look for your provisional for 3 minutes - for me, if you find your provisional ball in an area you walked to, or beyond, whilst looking for the first ball, I'd suggest that the 3 minutes rule applied and that both balls were lost.

 

[Orikoru]

But that is irrelevant. Because you need to effectively define the area before you find the balls. So, there is no point in trying to define "same area" once the balls have been found.

I could have hit the balls into the same area, yet one could have smacked a tree, and ended up 80 yards away from where I expected. If I didn't know that, I effectively only have 3 minutes to look for both balls. I don't have 3 minutes to look for one, and another 3 minutes to look elsewhere, on the off chance the ball was not where I expected it to be.

If I didn't find either within three minutes, I'd simply walk about 15 yards away from that spot and start looking again. Hey presto, another three minutes to look.

 

[Steve Wilkes]

So, you hit your first and second ball into the rough right and look for your first ball for 3 minutes but don't find it. You then decide to look for your provisional for 3 minutes - for me, if you find your provisional ball in an area you walked to, or beyond, whilst looking for the first ball, I'd suggest that the 3 minutes rule applied and that both balls were lost.

I'm not fully sure what you meant by this, If you meant as you walked to the area you thought the provisional might be, you by chance find the provisional in an area you have already looked for the first.
Then this is fine and the provisional is in play, as the time does not start until you start searching for the ball and where the ball is actually found is irrelevant.
It's a bit like the rule playing a provisional ball up to where you think the first ball might be. the point up to where you can play shots with the provisional is the point the first ball is thought to be and not where you eventually find it.

 

[Swango1980]

If I didn't find either within three minutes, I'd simply walk about 15 yards away from that spot and start looking again. Hey presto, another three minutes to look.

Well, if you spend 3 minutes looking for a ball in one area, then 3 minutes looking in another area 15 yards away that might be on the other side of a set of bushes or trees, then you are probably justified if you are pretty sure your first ball is short of the bushes and second ball is long of the bushes.

Whereas, if you hit both balls pretty much in the same sort of area, and just decide to slightly shift your search area by 15 yards simply to give yourself an extra 3 minutes to find the provisional, then one can only judge if you lack integrity or not by being there, and understanding the specific situation.

Mind you, it is a scenario that I'm not sure I've ever come across that often. The provisional ball is normally a scorcher down the middle. And, even if I hit it in the garbage, I'm probably not that worried about finding it. I either blob the hole, or NR (unless I hit a third ball off the tee)

 

[Steve Wilkes]

If I didn't find either within three minutes, I'd simply walk about 15 yards away from that spot and start looking again. Hey presto, another three minutes to look.

That's OK , but if you implied you were looking for your first ball in the 1st 3 minutes, then if you find it (1st ball) on the 2nd search then it's too late for that ball

 

[Orikoru]

That's OK , but if you implied you were looking for your first ball in the 1st 3 minutes, then if you find it (1st ball) on the 2nd search then it's too late for that ball

Already thought of that - just say you were looking for your provisional first!

 

[Steve Wilkes]

Already thought of that - just say you were looking for your provisional first!

Very clever thinking! and I can't see nothing wrong in that, as long as there are no crossover areas in both searches by you or your caddy, but again I could be wrong

 

[chrisd]

I'm not fully sure what you meant by this, If you meant as you walked to the area you thought the provisional might be, you by chance find the provisional in an area you have already looked for the first.
Then this is fine and the provisional is in play, as the time does not start until you start searching for the ball and where the ball is actually found is irrelevant.
It's a bit like the rule playing a provisional ball up to where you think the first ball might be. the point up to where you can play shots with the provisional is the point the first ball is thought to be and not where you eventually find it.

Mine was a reply to Orikoru about searching for 2 balls in the same area. He suggested that he'd take a second 3 minutes if the either ball was possibly 15 yards further than the other ball ie 2 seperate searches. All I was trying to say was that if either ball was found during the second 3 minute search, but in an area overlapping where he had already searched in the first 3 minute search, then I'd say that he shouldn't have taken a second 3 minutes and would have to deem whichever ball he found "still lost".

 

[clubchamp98]

What about a blind tee shot where the players can’t see the landing area?
Can you search one area if no joy search another area,.?

 

[Steve Wilkes]

What about a blind tee shot where the players can’t see the landing area?
Can you search one area if no joy search another area,.?

I would say no, as the whole search area(s) is in the same vicinity

 

[clubchamp98]

I would say no, as the whole search area(s) is in the same vicinity

I would respectfully disagree.
Surley you don’t know they are in the same area if you don’t see them land .!
Bad bounce left or right could have them 50 yds from each other on a similar line over a hill or dogleg.

How many times have you spotted a ball and said “ I don’t know how that got there”

 

[Steve Wilkes]

I would respectfully disagree.
Surley you don’t know they are in the same area if you don’t see them land .!
Bad bounce left or right could have them 50 yds from each other on a similar line over a hill or dogleg.

How many times have you spotted a ball and said “ I don’t know how that got there”

If you say "You are looking in this spot for the 1st ball and then that spot over there for 2nd ball" , yes 6 minutes in total, but 1st ball lost after 3 mins.
but if you say I'm looking in this area (irrespective of size) for either ball, then 3 mins total

 

[Swango1980]

I would respectfully disagree.
Surley you don’t know they are in the same area if you don’t see them land .!
Bad bounce left or right could have them 50 yds from each other on a similar line over a hill or dogleg.

How many times have you spotted a ball and said “ I don’t know how that got there”

Regardless of whether it bounces 200 yards away from where you thought it might be, you will still have to determine where you search before finding it.

The very fact you said "on a similar line", then assuming the strikes were about same as well, then you clearly feel they could end up in about same place. So, you only have 3 minutes.

Now, if you are thinking "well one could have bounced 50 yards left and the other 50 yards right", then that is just too bad. You can choose to have a search area 100 yards wide if you like, and 3 mins to search it all. But I bet you'll focus on a tighter spot, roughly the area you believe both balls were heading

 

[clubchamp98]

If you say "You are looking in this spot for the 1st ball and then that spot over there for 2nd ball" , yes 6 minutes in total, but 1st ball lost after 3 mins.
but if you say I'm looking in this area (irrespective of size) for either ball, then 3 mins total

Yes totally agree.
Look for three mins then look somewhere else first ball lost.!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

What about a blind tee shot where the players can’t see the landing area?
Can you search one area if no joy search another area,.?

Or a blind 2nd shot…as our 2nd hole. Oft a player’s ball will drift right and out of sight…but he knows towards an area of deep rough. A player will put a provisional into play. If it also drifts right on a similar trajectory we might assume they could be in the same search area.

But in going towards where we think one or both balls might be I will ask…”which ball are we looking for?” If he says “both” I might just say “well both balls in same search area means just 3mins covering looking for both balls”. He’ll normally say “1st ball”. And we’ll look for it. If we find it within 3mins then great.

If we don’t find it but find the provisional within the 3mins…great. If we find the provisional beyond 3mins in the area we’ve just been looking for the 1st ball then “too late”. If we expand our search area and find it in the additional search area and within a further 3mins then OK.

 

[Swango1980]

Or a blind 2nd shot…as our 2nd hole. Oft a player’s ball will drift right and out of sight…but he knows towards an area of deep rough. A player will put a provisional into play. If it also drifts right on a similar trajectory we might assume they could be in the same search area.

But in going towards where we think one or both balls might be I will ask…”which ball are we looking for?” If he says “both” I might just say “well both balls in same search area means just 3mins covering looking for both balls”. He’ll normally say “1st ball”. And we’ll look for it. If we find it within 3mins then great.

If we don’t find it but find the provisional within the 3mins…great. If we find the provisional beyond 3mins in the area we’ve just been looking for the 1st ball then “too late”. If we expand our search area and find it in the additional search area and within a further 3mins then OK.

The only think you want to watch out for (when you know both balls looked to go roughly the same place) is if they say they will look for provisional first, then ask for an extra 3 minutes to look for original. Otherwise they get 6 minutes to effectively find original, yet the search area had barely changed after first 3 minutes

 

[rulie]

If both balls are in the same area, then you don’t get to choose which ball you are looking for, you get a single 3 minute search time.