Colin L
Tour Winner
Because they didn't know any better but thought they knew?
Provisional(s)
- Thread starter rulie
- Start date
nickjdavis
Head Pro
My only guess is that because the first provisional went OOB that they thought that it had some sort of "elevated status" that over-rid the status of the first ball played from the tee. That a provisional hit OOB is somehow treated differently to a provisional that stays in play.
RulesLurker
New member
Well, that's a given. But I've yet to come across anyone before who thinks that if the ball is in the rough it is no longer in play. So was it that they thought it was found outside the 3 minute search, didn't know he had declared other balls as provisionals?
wjemather
Well-known member
How about if they were given a wrong ruling by pro shop/club staff? (who are also able to suspend play, so by your logic have the same authority as "the pro" (which is still ambiguous by the way)).
clubchamp98
Journeyman Pro
Maybe they were not golfers just spectators!
Colin L
Tour Winner
If a person is has the authority to suspend play in a competition, how can he or she not be in charge of the competition when they do so? And being in charge meets the Definition of one of the Committee, does it not? But if they were clearly not competent to make rulings, what they are allowed to do could be limited.
rulie
Head Pro
Agree. They may be a minor part of the Committee, but they are not permitted to give rulings or Rules advice. Our starters and scorers are part of the Committee, but their responsibilities are limited to starting and scoring, not Rules or rulings. When we run competitions, the members of Rules Committee are identified by name on the Notice to Players.
We try to teach players to ask a couple questions,
- "Are you a Rules official for this competition?"
- "What are my options here?"
wjemather
Well-known member
This doesn't address the question I posed.
Anyway, if someone does not have the delegated authority to give rulings, if a player falls foul of bad rules advice given by them, the player should receive the appropriate penalty, even if the person giving the rules advice is "the pro" - "the pro" has no special powers to bypass/waive the rules or even make up their own.
Your last statement gets it right. Committees may delegate (or limit) responsibilities as they see fit. However, contrary to what you have implied, being authorised to suspend play doesn't mean that person is in charge of the competition or is authorised to fulfil any other committee responsibility (e.g. give rulings), or is a member of the committee. Pros, assistants, course managers, club staff, etc. are commonly not members of the committee but are routinely given various specific delegated responsibilities by the committee.
salfordlad
Well-known member
Just caught up with this interesting scenario. Put aside all the 10 year old player stuff, it is irrelevant, the player was simply advised badly by another person.
Short answer is: player played a wrong ball (provisionals automatically became wrong balls when the original was found inside the 3 minutes). In stroke play, if wrong ball is not corrected prior to hitting from the next tee, ruling is DQ. It is that simple, no other issues come into it.
Short answer is: player played a wrong ball (provisionals automatically became wrong balls when the original was found inside the 3 minutes). In stroke play, if wrong ball is not corrected prior to hitting from the next tee, ruling is DQ. It is that simple, no other issues come into it.
Neilds
Assistant Pro
On the subject of ‘asking the committee’, how does this work in practice? I don’t know who is on our committee, and also which committee are you referring to? We have a greens committee, handicap committee and then the main committee - which is actually authorised to make rulings for competitions?
Colin L
Tour Winner
I have said nothing, I hope, to suggest that a player escapes a penalty if acting on wrong advice about the rules by a person not authorised to make a ruling. What I do see, week in week out, is that the the pro is a key figure in the setting up and especially the running of a competition on the day in way that clearly shows him to be one of the group in charge of the competition and hence by definition one of the committee. If he/she is not to be allowed to make rulings, that has to be an explicit limitation. Without such a limitation, a player acting in accordance with the pro's ruling should be protected if that ruling is wrong. There is a difference, of course, between a person who has a responsibility which involves them in controlling aspects of the competition and so being of the group `"in charge'` and a person who is just given a job to do like making out scorecards. It was only an illustration but I really cannot see that deciding that play has to be suspended in a competition and consequently when play can restart or whether the competition has to be abandoned is other than an 'in charge' kind of responsibility. The committee in charge of a particular competition is not necessary the formally constituted club competitions committee or rules committee. It is essential to have clarity as to who has the authority to make rulings given the way the Committee can include so many people without specialist rules knowledge and given that the Rules simply refer to the Committee as the final arbiter of just about everything. It really comes to down to what rogolf has shown. The extent of the authority of anyone involved in running a competition needs to be identified, explicitly stated and known to all - especially the authority to make rulings.
Mel Smooth
Hacker
What this thread highlights is that we're sending junior golfers out to play competitions - under a very complex rules system, without enough support.
The difference between the way some junior comps are run here, and the experiences we had in Spain are night and day.
The difference between the way some junior comps are run here, and the experiences we had in Spain are night and day.
Neilds
Assistant Pro
Similar to my post #50, 'the pro' as you mention isn't as clear as you make it when applied to my club. We have 2 pros and 2 assistants at my club, the head pro is also Director of Golf (or something). The pro in the shop could be any of the 4 and, if questioning a ruling, may not be the person who took your money when you signed in. Are all the pros considered to be part of the committee, even if 2 are not yet fully qualified (but still very good)?
I am not trying to be obtuse, but some people make out it is really easy to 'contact the committee' when required but I feel this is not so simple in real life. Also, if a member of the committee is involved in the competition, or more complicated, in the group under discussion, are they allowed to make a ruling?
D
Deleted member 29109
Guest
This. We see it quite regularly on here that the committee should be contacted where there is a rules related argument. It’s said as though the committee are just sat in a room in the club house next to a big red phone waiting for it to ring.
I’d wager a 10 year old doesn’t even know what a committee is, so he’ll have no idea who is on the committee or how to contact them on the 1st hole while a bunch of adults are dishing out rules advice.
I’m not a 10 year old child (man child maybe
). Other than the captain and the guy who sends a weekly newsletter, I don’t know who makes up the committee at my club.I’m 100% with Mel here that the child has been badly let down and many on here have lost sight of that. Unfortunately this happens far too regularly.
clubchamp98
Journeyman Pro
We have a person from the comittiee named on the start sheet with their phone number.
Any problems you phone them.!
But this child has been let down by two idiots who quote rules they don’t know.
This is very commonplace in golf though at all levels.
The lad has probably seen the pros on tv getting a ruling ( not doing it themselves) and trusted the adults,
Any problems you phone them.!
But this child has been let down by two idiots who quote rules they don’t know.
This is very commonplace in golf though at all levels.
The lad has probably seen the pros on tv getting a ruling ( not doing it themselves) and trusted the adults,
Neilds
Assistant Pro
Now you say that, we do have an organiser detailed for each comp who is named on the sign up sheet. Never thought that would be the nominated committee member
bobmac
Major Champion
At the end of the day, the kid learned 2 valuable lessons whilst playing.
Isn't that how most or us learned the rules?
Isn't that how most or us learned the rules?
D
Deleted member 29109
Guest
Don’t trust adults advice and?
bobmac
Major Champion
If you find your first ball, you can pick up your provisionals
D
Deleted member 29109
Guest
According to the OP the kid knew this but was told otherwise by the adults.
