Ball lost in Rough believed plugged

[doublebogey7]

The OP made it pretty clear the ball was simply in rough. Not in GUR or a PA.
My post referenced the rule. The embedded ball rule is 16.3.

But your post gave the impression to me that in all situations needed to know the exact location of the ball in order to indentify a reference point and you don't . I know you know that but others reading your post may not.

Oh I cannot see the rule reference in your post.

 

[Dando]

But an embedded Ball is not an Abnormal Course Condition. Relief for an Embedded ball is covered by Rule 16.3.

what about all the recent rain making the course waterlogged in places? I am playing in a winter knock out on saturday and fully expect our 8th fairway to be as soft as a soft thing from 200 - 280 off the tee.

if my ball plugs in the fairway and is lost, surely i'll get a free drop as it's an abnormal course condition?

 

[Voyager EMH]

So where do you get abnormal ground conditions from that? If he said it was lost in a puddle, then I'd see the connection. But lost in soft ground?

I am not "getting" abnormal ground conditions - I am suggesting that the player may have had some inkling of "ball lost in abnormal ground conditions" when the ground is soft (and/or wet) enough for the ball to disappear.
It is a common enough occurrence that players have an incomplete understanding of a rule and its procedure and I thought that this would be one of those occasions.
I'm sure his idea of a free drop did not suddenly occur to him on the spot - he must have got the idea from somewhere - however poor that knowledge was at the time.

 

[Swango1980]

what about all the recent rain making the course waterlogged in places? I am playing in a winter knock out on saturday and fully expect our 8th fairway to be as soft as a soft thing from 200 - 280 off the tee.

if my ball plugs in the fairway and is lost, surely i'll get a free drop as it's an abnormal course condition?

Not if the fairway is soft, no. And this is why I think bring up abnormal ground conditions in this post can become misleading.

Anytime your ball is embedded, it is likely the ground was pretty soft. But an embedded ball is not abnormal ground conditions.

But if your fairway was covered in puddles, then you will get a drop if your ball ends up in casual water. Whether it is embedded or not is irrelevant

 

[Dando]

Not if the fairway is soft, no. And this is why I think bring up abnormal ground conditions in this post can become misleading.

Anytime your ball is embedded, it is likely the ground was pretty soft. But an embedded ball is not abnormal ground conditions.

But if your fairway was covered in puddles, then you will get a drop if your ball ends up in casual water. Whether it is embedded or not is irrelevant

thanks for that

 

[Swango1980]

I am not "getting" abnormal ground conditions - I am suggesting that the player may have had some inkling of "ball lost in abnormal ground conditions" when the ground is soft (and/or wet) enough for the ball to disappear.
It is a common enough occurrence that players have an incomplete understanding of a rule and its procedure and I thought that this would be one of those occasions.
I'm sure his idea of a free drop did not suddenly occur to him on the spot - he must have got the idea from somewhere - however poor that knowledge was at the time.

Yes, it is true that when a player comes up with a bogus ruling, there may be some sort of explanation as to why they though the wrong thing. I suppose we could come up with many many forms of speculation why this might be the case.

I wasn't trying to challenge you in an overly critical way either, but hard to get across in text. Just that if abnormal ground conditions is raised, then it might have been worth also clarifying that there was no evidence from the OP that this was the case, so is unlikely to apply. Because if not, then it might be easy for those more unfamiliar with the rules, that the abnormal ground conditions would actually be a justifiable reason in this case (i.e. claiming such a thing simply because the ball was not found in the rough and the weather is wetter this time of year, so could be plugged)

 

[Voyager EMH]

what about all the recent rain making the course waterlogged in places? I am playing in a winter knock out on saturday and fully expect our 8th fairway to be as soft as a soft thing from 200 - 280 off the tee.

if my ball plugs in the fairway and is lost, surely i'll get a free drop as it's an abnormal course condition?

Up to you to have more than 95% certainty.

Ground conditions of wet or soft or puddles do not necessarily determine abnormal ground conditions.
If a ball is seen to disappear into the ground this could be enough to proceed under ball lost in abnormal ground conditions.

Yes, it is true that when a player comes up with a bogus ruling, there may be some sort of explanation as to why they though the wrong thing. I suppose we could come up with many many forms of speculation why this might be the case.

I wasn't trying to challenge you in an overly critical way either, but hard to get across in text. Just that if abnormal ground conditions is raised, then it might have been worth also clarifying that there was no evidence from the OP that this was the case, so is unlikely to apply. Because if not, then it might be easy for those more unfamiliar with the rules, that the abnormal ground conditions would actually be a justifiable reason in this case (i.e. claiming such a thing simply because the ball was not found in the rough and the weather is wetter this time of year, so could be plugged)

The title of the thread states "believed plugged" and the OP tells us that the player took or wanted to take free relief.
None of us can tell whether abnormal ground conditions applied unless we were there.
The player appeared to me to be proceeding as if those conditions did apply, but without stating so and in a dubious or questionable way.
The player should have taken stroke and distance, since he did not claim ball lost in abnormal ground conditions, merely lost-believed-plugged.
But his actions suggested to me that he had perhaps witnessed an instance of ball lost in abnormal ground conditions.

 

[Swango1980]

Up to you to have more than 95% certainty.

Ground conditions of wet or soft or puddles do not necessarily determine abnormal ground conditions.
If a ball is seen to disappear into the ground this could be enough to proceed under ball lost in abnormal ground conditions.

Again, I think your comments here could easily be misinterpreted by some looking for advice on a rule, and probably not overly useful to what Dando asked.

Rather than be flaky as to what may or may not apply, is it not simply easier to define what abnormal ground conditions are?

Abnormal Ground Conditions are the following:

Animal Hole
Ground Under Repair
Immovable Obstruction
Temporary Water

Of those 4 things, we are clearly ruling out the first 3 in the OPs case. You've found a vaguely possible reason to assume temporary water could be a reason in the OP, albeit this was not mentioned at all. Perhaps it is because we are in October and we've had rain recently? Would you have made the same assumption if exactly the same question was asked in July / August?

For Dandos separate question, sure temporary water may now be an issue, and now an embedded ball is irrelevant to the conversation. So, for Dando, all he needs to know is that temporary water is:

Any temporary accumulation of water on the surface of the ground (such as puddles from rain or irrigation or an overflow from a body of water) that:

• Is not in a penalty area, and
• Can be seen before or after the player takes a stance (without pressing down excessively with their feet)

P.S. to the OP, this probably would have been better in the Rules of Golf forum

 

[rulefan]

I have never really liked the blanket term 'abnormal ground condition' as it can be construed as something that the player believes to be 'not as good' as they expect. In particular when poor ground is not marked or specified as such by LR. eg when a player claims rough grass or heather intruding into the fairway is 'abnormal'.
I know Swango1980 has specified the sub categories but how many really read the words.

PPS I support the PS

 

[rulie]

Ball was not found in long rough, "believed" to be embedded because it was not found. Could the ball be elsewhere in the "long rough"?
My ruling would be a lost ball.

 

[Larry long dog]

Hijacking this sorry in an attempt to be certain of my understanding. We’ve 2 holes (at least) where the rough when wet/puddles the ball disappears (99% certain to find the ball in the drier months). Is this abnormal course conditions? Ie free drop roughly in the area where the ball disappears? Ta

 

[Billysboots]

Notwithstanding all the posts following the OP (I haven’t read most of them), I do think if a playing partner tried to claim a freebie saying their ball had plugged in the rough without even finding it, I would struggle not to laugh out loud.

 

[rulefan]

Hijacking this sorry in an attempt to be certain of my understanding. We’ve 2 holes (at least) where the rough when wet/puddles the ball disappears (99% certain to find the ball in the drier months). Is this abnormal course conditions? Ie free drop roughly in the area where the ball disappears? Ta

If the puddled area satisfies these conditions it is Temporary Water (ie an Abnormal Course Condition)

Temporary Water​

Any temporary accumulation of water on the surface of the ground (such as puddles from rain or irrigation or an overflow from a body of water) that:

• Is not in a penalty area, and
• Can be seen before or after the player takes a stance (without pressing down excessively with their feet).

It is not enough for the ground to be merely wet, muddy or soft or for the water to be momentarily visible as the player steps on the ground; an accumulation of water must remain present either before or after the stance is taken.


To be Ground Under Repair the Committee would have to identified as such by marking or by Local Rule

 

[rulie]

Hijacking this sorry in an attempt to be certain of my understanding. We’ve 2 holes (at least) where the rough when wet/puddles the ball disappears (99% certain to find the ball in the drier months). Is this abnormal course conditions? Ie free drop roughly in the area where the ball disappears? Ta

Is it marked as GUR? Is it temporary water? Both are defined terms in the Rules. If not either of them, it’s a lost ball.

 

[doublebogey7]

what about all the recent rain making the course waterlogged in places? I am playing in a winter knock out on saturday and fully expect our 8th fairway to be as soft as a soft thing from 200 - 280 off the tee.

if my ball plugs in the fairway and is lost, surely I'll get a free drop as it's an abnormal course condition?

Yes if you have KVC that the ball lies in an area that meets the definition of Temporary Water.

No if the ball was seen to go into an area that is merely soft. Soft ground is not an ACC and neither is an embedded ball.

 

[Jigger]

I agree it’s a lost ball but in friendly wet winter style golf, you can decide whatever you want. I’d just recommend you do it in advance. We’ve played a lot of preferred lies outside of the preferred lie season this year as it’s generally been wet and had plenty of mud balls. When playing a friendly, golf has to be fun first and foremost.

 

[rulefan]

I agree it’s a lost ball but in friendly wet winter style golf, you can decide whatever you want. I’d just recommend you do it in advance. We’ve played a lot of preferred lies outside of the preferred lie season this year as it’s generally been wet and had plenty of mud balls. When playing a friendly, golf has to be fun first and foremost.

Do what you like but why post in a forum which is explicitly intended labelled Rules of Golf?

 

[Jigger]

Do what you like but why post in a forum which is explicitly intended labelled Rules of Golf?

Gotta know when to break em