Ball lost in Rough believed plugged

[Redandy888]

Hi
Ball lost in rough landed from great height.Long grass. PP stated it was lost due to it being plugged in rough therefore free drop, I understood it's a lost ball ?? We played his shout with a new ball as it's friendly golf.
Anybody clarify ??
Many thanks
Andy

 

[Crow]

If you can't find it and identify it the ball is lost.

 

[Redandy888]

If you can't find it and identify it the ball is lost.

Thank you Crow, appreciate

 

[Voyager EMH]

Ball lost in abnormal ground conditions.
This might have been applicable, but he would have needed to state this at the time.

Rules buffs to clarify please.

 

[Kennysarmy]

Surely a ball needs to be "found" for it to be identified as plugged?

Interested in rules clarification.

 

[Slab]

Ball lost in abnormal ground conditions.
This might have been applicable, but he would have needed to state this at the time.

Rules buffs to clarify please.

Not a 'buff' (well not on rules anyway) but extract from USGA rules for Abnormal Course Conditions/Embedded ball (my underline)

If your ball is stuck in the ground (embedded) anywhere except in a bunker or a penalty area, generally you get free relief. Your ball must be found to take free relief.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Not a 'buff' (well not on rules anyway) but extract from USGA rules for Abnormal Course Conditions/Embedded ball (my underline)

If your ball is stuck in the ground (embedded) anywhere except in a bunker or a penalty area, generally you get free relief. Your ball must be found to take free relief.

That is not ball lost in abnormal ground conditions.

Ball lost in brings in the more than 95% certainty can-of-worms.

 

[Swango1980]

That is not ball lost in abnormal ground conditions.

Ball lost in brings in the more than 95% certainty can-of-worms.

The 95% applies to a ball being in a penalty area (virtually certain). What would be the can of worms in this scenario?

In this scenario, the ball was not found. It was therefore lost. There was nothing said about the ball being in abnormal ground conditions. There was simply a claim that is was embedded, which can happen on any part of the course. Yet there was no evidence that it was embedded, it was only assumed.

Unless we are now saying that if I ever lose my ball in the long rough after a high shot, I can just try and claim it must be embedded if I can't find it? That sounds handy.

 

[Voyager EMH]

The 95% applies to a ball being in a penalty area (virtually certain). What would be the can of worms in this scenario?

In this scenario, the ball was not found. It was therefore lost. There was nothing said about the ball being in abnormal ground conditions. There was simply a claim that is was embedded, which can happen on any part of the course. Yet there was no evidence that it was embedded, it was only assumed.

Unless we are now saying that if I ever lose my ball in the long rough after a high shot, I can just try and claim it must be embedded if I can't find it? That sounds handy.

Yep, covered all that in my simple use of "might have been applicable" and I stated that the player would have needed to state that he was following ball lost in abnormal ground conditions at the time.
Careful reading of my first post makes this clear.

 

[Redandy888]

The 95% applies to a ball being in a penalty area (virtually certain). What would be the can of worms in this scenario?

In this scenario, the ball was not found. It was therefore lost. There was nothing said about the ball being in abnormal ground conditions. There was simply a claim that is was embedded, which can happen on any part of the course. Yet there was no evidence that it was embedded, it was only assumed.

Unless we are now saying that if I ever lose my ball in the long rough after a high shot, I can just try and claim it must be embedded if I can't find it? That sounds handy.

Ah good point. It could be claimed every time. So has to be lost ball

 

[Redandy888]

Not a 'buff' (well not on rules anyway) but extract from USGA rules for Abnormal Course Conditions/Embedded ball (my underline)

If your ball is stuck in the ground (embedded) anywhere except in a bunker or a penalty area, generally you get free relief. Your ball must be found to take free relief.

Ah sorted tx

 

[Swango1980]

Yep, covered all that in my simple use of "might have been applicable" and I stated that the player would have needed to state that he was following ball lost in abnormal ground conditions at the time.
Careful reading of my first post makes this clear.

Don't assume that I didn't read your post, I absolutely did. My post is a response to all your posts on this matter. Where are you getting abnormal ground conditions from, that was all I'm getting at? There didn't seem to be any mention of this whatsoever, so it seems like a complete red herring. I just felt it was a strange thing to think was a possible explanation, when the original post simply said the ball was lost in long rough.

 

[rulefan]

Not a 'buff' (well not on rules anyway) but extract from USGA rules for Abnormal Course Conditions/Embedded ball (my underline)

If your ball is stuck in the ground (embedded) anywhere except in a bunker or a penalty area, generally you get free relief. Your ball must be found to take free relief.

In addition the rule says

• Reference Point: The spot in the general area right behind where the ball is embedded.

If the ball cannot be found how can the Reference Point be established?

 

[Voyager EMH]

Don't assume that I didn't read your post, I absolutely did. My post is a response to all your posts on this matter. Where are you getting abnormal ground conditions from, that was all I'm getting at? There didn't seem to be any mention of this whatsoever, so it seems like a complete red herring. I just felt it was a strange thing to think was a possible explanation, when the original post simply said the ball was lost in long rough.

Well, the way I see it is this.

The player might have got a notion of a free drop from somewhere, as that appears to be what he did or wanted to do.
He may have seen someone getting a free drop from ball lost (with >95% certainty) in abnormal ground conditions, but not been fully aware of what rule that is and how it applies.

He then found himself in a similar situation and did as many people do - proceed with a very incoherent and unclear understanding of which rule applies and why and how.

This was my reading of the original scenario and why I was "getting abnormal ground conditions" for a ball that lands in long rough and the ground is soft enough for the ball to disappear into the ground, unable to be seen, plugged below ground or whatever.

I do not believe this is a "red herring" or a strange thing to think, as the OP stated "plugged" in long rough area not merely lost in long rough area.

I'm very happy to give any further explanation of my thinking on this matter should you require any.

 

[doublebogey7]

In addition the rule says

• Reference Point: The spot in the general area right behind where the ball is embedded.

If the ball cannot be found how can the Reference Point be established?

There are plenty of occasions when the ball does not have to be found when the player has to use their best estimate for the reference point. For instance ball lost ina PA or in GUR.

Never the less the ball must be found in order to take relief for an embeeded ball, how else can it be estblished that it meets the criteria outlined in Rule 16.3a

 

[Voyager EMH]

 

[rulefan]

There are plenty of occasions when the ball does not have to be found when the player has to use their best estimate for the reference point. For instance ball lost ina PA or in GUR.

Never the less the ball must be found in order to take relief for an embeeded ball, how else can it be estblished that it meets the criteria outlined in Rule 16.3a

The OP made it pretty clear the ball was simply in rough. Not in GUR or a PA.
My post referenced the rule. The embedded ball rule is 16.3.

 

[Voyager EMH]

The OP made it pretty clear the ball was simply in rough. Not in GUR or a PA.
My post referenced the rule. The embedded ball rule is 16.3.

... simply in rough believed plugged.

 

[doublebogey7]

View attachment 50157

But an embedded Ball is not an Abnormal Course Condition. Relief for an Embedded ball is covered by Rule 16.3.

 

[Swango1980]

Well, the way I see it is this.

The player might have got a notion of a free drop from somewhere, as that appears to be what he did or wanted to do.
He may have seen someone getting a free drop from ball lost (with >95% certainty) in abnormal ground conditions, but not been fully aware of what rule that is and how it applies.

He then found himself in a similar situation and did as many people do - proceed with a very incoherent and unclear understanding of which rule applies and why and how.

This was my reading of the original scenario and why I was "getting abnormal ground conditions" for a ball that lands in long rough and the ground is soft enough for the ball to disappear into the ground, unable to be seen, plugged below ground or whatever.

I do not believe this is a "red herring" or a strange thing to think, as the OP stated "plugged" in long rough area not merely lost in long rough area.

I'm very happy to give any further explanation of my thinking on this matter should you require any.

So where do you get abnormal ground conditions from that? If he said it was lost in a puddle, then I'd see the connection. But lost in soft ground?