Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
Sad maybe but not against the rules.......
Declaring a ball lost?
- Thread starter Opengav
- Start date
williamalex1
Money List Winner
Within the rules yes, sad yes , its only a game , played by gentlemen.:smirk:
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
@Duncan - OK - will start another thread along 'compare and contrast' lines.
Pro Zach
Assistant Pro
If he was a gentleman he wouldn't try to gain an advantage by not looking for his first ball.
williamalex1
Money List Winner
It's his ball to look for OR not, as a FC / opponent you are indeed within your rights to search for HIS ball, for the full 5 mins , holding the course up , if its that important ok.
Foxholer
Blackballed
Not once he's played the provisional from closer to the hole than the 1st one is likely to be - even if played out of turn - as that make that one the ball in play.It's his ball to look for OR not, as a FC / opponent you are indeed within your rights to search for HIS ball, for the full 5 mins , holding the course up , if its that important ok.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
...so you know what is in your FC's mind if he grabs a club and races off down the fairway towards his provisional
chrisd
Major Champion
if he plays out of turn you can require him to replay the shot in turn and keep him waiting while you search for his ball.
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
...so you know what is in your FC's mind if he grabs a club and races off down the fairway towards his provisional
I know what's in their mind when they declare 'provisional' after hitting the first miles off into the rubbish....if the next one goes wrong too at least he may find the first and have another go!
The ruling bodies really don't like provisional balls at all from any angle - they are a necessary abomination which may speed up the play of the game (and save a lot more walking!) and provide the only situation in the rules where a player effectively (as discussed here) gets to select from 2 known outcomes.
chrisd
Major Champion
But, at least with a known penalty attached from one of the two
Region3
Ryder Cup Winner
You can require that he play the shot again, but as soon as he's made a stroke at the provisional it becomes the ball in play so you can't make him play the first if you find it.
I think.
chrisd
Major Champion
In matchplay the stroke is cancelled (10 - 1c) so I would assume my reading is correct
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Which is actually the perspective I was coming from with my going off on a tangent 'putt off the green and take S&D' observation. Ruling bodies don't like 'provisionals' for reasons you have given - FC might well not like use of S&D in some scenarios. But ignoring first ball is not usually frowned upon by players - whereas my use of S&D is. I'm guessing ruling bodies are happy with players using S&D as suggested. But I won't go back there.
Interested though to read thoughts of ruling bods on provisionals - as they can clearly be abused in a way not totally aligned with spirit of golf.
Colin L
Tour Winner
Can't agree with that, at all! If you choose to walk straight to your provisional without looking for the original ball and play it, you are doing only one thing different from finding your original ball, deciding it is unplayable and walking back to where you played your previous shot from to put another ball in play. The one thing different? You are saving time, which is a Good Thing.
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
Gary is correct.
The original ball becomes lost when the provisional is played in such a situation, and the subsequent recalling of the shot by the opponent cannot change this.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
OK - but my situation posed was when the original tee shot is absolutely not lost or unplayable and is in fact sitting completely in the clear smiling and waving to me if I were to chose to go to it and identify it as mine. Problem is that I decide that in all probability the ball is sitting in a highly disadvantageous place from which to recover. So I decide to ignore it and play on with my provisional. Might have words if FC or PP insists on going to that original ball and identifying it as mine
Is this in the spirit of the game?
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ger147
Tour Winner
But you're not though are you? If you wanted to do that would you not declare that you were taking a S&D penalty and play another ball? By declaring it provisional, you are hedging your bets in case the provisional also ends up in a less than favourable position after you play it and then you still have the option of looking for and playing your 1st ball.
Colin L
Tour Winner
OK - but my situation posed was when the original tee shot is absolutely not lost or unplayable and is in fact sitting completely in the clear smiling and waving to me if I were to chose to go to it and identify it as mine. Problem is that I decide that in all probability the ball is sitting in a highly disadvantageous place from which to recover. So I decide to ignore it and play on with my provisional. Might have words if FC or PP insists on going to that original ball and identifying it as mine
Is this in the spirit of the game?
No, what you describe would not be in the spirit of the game because it would be a breach of the rules. You cannot ignore a ball that is visible. You must check it out and if you identify it as yours, you must play it (provided that it was found within 5 minutes). By finding the original ball in time, the provisional is out of play and if you played it, you would be playing a wrong ball.
I was talking of the situation where your original ball is not seen, you have chosen to play a PB, but decide you won't look for the original. That is what is the same as finding the original and going back under stroke and distance, but quicker.
Foxholer
Blackballed
I'd like to think that it is, but haven't seen any decision that clarifies it. And the rule Chris refers to specifies that the stroke is 'cancelled'. So does that cancellation mean that the state of the original ball reverts?
Another case of context, wording and grammar?
Btw. Nothing ungentlemanly by either opponents imo. I've seen such a search made - with no help from the Provisional player - and can remember John Daly walking straight to the his ball 40 yards from the green - when his opponent (Colseat?) carved one into rubbish (to the left of the 10th at St Andrews from memory) and then stuck a Provisional to about a foot. Hole was halved in Par.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Yes I agree. However in my scenario I did not say I could see any ball (which might be mine). Like your scenario I just decide not to go and look for it as I don't want to find it (notwithstanding the ball might be completely playable and is not lost) as I am 99% certain that the ball will become visible to me as soon as I start looking. So I just choose to accept the penalty and play my provisional. This as you say clearly does not break any rule and you judge that this is not against spirit of the game - and we probably all agree.
I am however just a little curious as to why this is OK in the spirit of things when putting off the green and taking S&D isn't. The scenarios are almost identical even if the way you use the rules are different. You have played a shot and it's ended up somewhere from where you don't want to have to play it. So you effectively ignore the consequences of the original shot, apply the rules, and play on.
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