Declaring a ball lost?

[Colin L]

. However in my scenario I did not say I could see a ball (which could most likely be mine).
.

Ah, I see. It was "my situation posed was when the original tee shot is absolutely not lost or unplayable and is in fact sitting completely in the clear smiling and waving to me if I were to chose to go to it and identify it as mine." that fooled me.

 

[duncan mackie]

I'd like to think that it is, but haven't seen any decision that clarifies it. And the rule Chris refers to specifies that the stroke is 'cancelled'. So does that cancellation mean that the state of the original ball reverts?

Another case of context, wording and grammar?

"In match play, if the player so proceeds and his provisional ball is closer to the hole than his opponent's ball, his opponent may recall the stroke (Rule 10-1c). However, recalling the stroke would not change the status of the original ball, which was lost when the provisional ball was played out of turn." from 27-2b/1 should help you

I don't see any problem in the wording of the rule, only the quote's being used The whole sentence reads "If a player plays when his opponent should have played, there is no penalty, but the opponent may immediately require the player to cancel the stroke so made and, in correct order, play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5)."

I have made the and bold above to illustrate the difference between here, where the cancellation includes a further action and another thread where they are not linked.....

 

[Foxholer]

27-2b/1 should help you

That's precisely what I as looking for - but missed at the top of the screen!oo:

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Ah, I see. It was "my situation posed was when the original tee shot is absolutely not lost or unplayable and is in fact sitting completely in the clear smiling and waving to me if I were to chose to go to it and identify it as mine." that fooled me.

Wooa - I think you may misunderstand.

Let's just say I hit my ball over a dense and high stand of trees that runs all down the side of the fairway - and I have hit a provisional straight to position A1. I know that the other side of the trees is another fairway and my first ball will most likely be sitting on the fairway, neat and tidy and lovely lie. But I also know that to recover in three from there to a position equivalent to where my provisional is lying will be very difficult, if not impossible. So I just say 'stuff that first ball - I'm not bothering with it and most certainly not going to go through the trees to check where it is because I will spot it; I will have to check the ball - and identify it as mine as it will be; and I will have to play it. Sod that'

So I just walk to my provisional and play my 4th shot (unless FC goes to original first etc etc). Is that within the sprit of the game? It is that sort of scenario that I think Duncan refers to and why the RBs don't like provisionals.

 

[Colin L]

So I just walk to my provisional and play my 4th shot (unless FC goes to original first etc etc). Is that within the spirit of the game? It is that sort of scenario that I think Duncan refers to and why the RBs don't like provisionals.

As long as neither you nor anyone else has seen a ball smiling and waving where your original ball is likely to be, you can just play the PB. I confess to being completely stubborn about this spirit of the game thing: if you play within the rules you cannot be acting contrary to the spirit of the game which is defined, in part, as playing within the rules.

I wasn't aware that the "RBs don't like provisionals." Where is that to be found?

 

[Foxholer]

I confess to being completely stubborn about this spirit of the game thing: if you play within the rules you cannot be acting contrary to the spirit of the game which is defined, in part, as playing within the rules.

Absolutely agree

And that also covers the use of 27-1 if you don't fancy where you ended up!

 

[Colin L]

Wooa - I think you may misunderstand.

Let's just say I hit my ball over a dense and high stand of trees that runs all down the side of the fairway - and I have hit a provisional straight to position A1. I know that the other side of the trees is another fairway and my first ball will most likely be sitting on the fairway, neat and tidy and lovely lie. .

Just a thought. If you are certain your ball will be on the next fairway, you shouldn't be playing a provisional ball in the first place.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Just a thought. If you are certain your ball will be on the next fairway, you shouldn't be playing a provisional ball in the first place.

Why shouldn't I? Surely whether or not I think my ball is likely to be on the adjacent fairway or even if somehow I know it will be is irrelevant to whether or not I decide to play a provisional - especially as I can't see it. I'm not aware of any rule preventing me playing a provisional whenever I want. Doesn't mean there isn't one of course. I could of course just put another ball into play - but as I can mess that up as well it's better to play a provisional so that I have a choice of ball to play.

Actually I'm glad that your view is that using the rules to your advantage even if I am rather twisting the intent of the rule, should not be viewed as somehow 'a bad thing'. If and when I putt off our 7th green and end up tight to the sheer face of the greenside bunker I shall have no qualms about taking stroke and distance in accordance with rule 27-1 and placing muy ball back on the green from the spot I had putted it.

a. Proceeding Under Stroke and Distance
At any time, a player may, under penalty of one stroke, play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5), i.e., proceed under penalty of stroke and distance.

 

[Colin L]

.... I'm not aware of any rule preventing me playing a provisional whenever I want. Doesn't mean there isn't one of course. ....

A good caveat since there is one
Rule 27-2a allows you to play a provisional ball only if your original ball may be lost (but not in a water hazard) or out of bounds. That means conversely that if you know your original ball is not lost or out of bounds, you cannot play a provisional.

In the situation you described, if there were a possibility that the ball could be lost in the trees, you are ok to play the provisional, but if you are certain it will be found on the adjacent fairway, you are not.

 

[chrisd]

I confess to being completely stubborn about this spirit of the game thing: if you play within the rules you cannot be acting contrary to the spirit of the game which is defined, in part, as playing within the rules.

?

That's my view too. The rules giveth and the rules taketh away! ( usually they giveth a 2 shot penalty!)

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

A good caveat since there is one
Rule 27-2a allows you to play a provisional ball only if your original ball may be lost (but not in a water hazard) or out of bounds. That means conversely that if you know your original ball is not lost or out of bounds, you cannot play a provisional.

In the situation you described, if there were a possibility that the ball could be lost in the trees, you are ok to play the provisional, but if you are certain it will be found on the adjacent fairway, you are not.

OoooK then - but as I'm only guessing that my ball will probably be fine and dandy - maybe 90% certain say - but I don't know for certain as I can't see it. Surely I am entitled to play a provisional if I have any degree of uncertainty in my mind - and not being able to see my ball surely means I must be allowed to have some uncertainty.

I note that one of our dearly beloved posters on here said to me when playing with him at a recent board meet that he often plays a provisional if he can't actually see for almost 100% certain exactly where his ball has gone - drives his PPs nuts - but he regularly does it.

I'm only pushing this a bit as it is germaine to playing 'within the rules' and 'to the spirit of the game' discussions and I find it interesting that there are some circumstances when I could just simply decide that I really didn't fancy the outcome of my shot; take a penalty and play it again. OK it has cost me two shots but in the scheme of turning let's say a high likelihood 8+ into a straightforward 6 why not?

 

[Colin L]

. Surely I am entitled to play a provisional if I have any degree of uncertainty in my mind - and not being able to see my ball surely means I must be allowed to have some uncertainty.

Yes, that's what I was saying. If there is a possibility of your ball being lost you not only can but should play a provisional.

 

[bobmac]

He hadn't really considered this and I gave him an example.

I putt off the green into a horrid position (in bunker, down slope in some nasty rough, dreadfull bare patch or massive divot etc) so I take S&D. Now we here had a discussion on this at length in a previous time - and it seemed to me that the majority opinion was that I shouldn't take S&D in such circumstances - bad show - not in spirit of game etc.

If I remember correctly, that discussion was about putting off the green, down the fairway into a perfectly good lie and then someone claiming it unplayable.
That was what people were having an issue with, not putting off the green into a terrible spot and claiming S&D.
But then, goalposts are there to be moved

 

[MashieNiblick]

Interesting discussion. Following Decision my also help clarify playing of PB.

27-2a/3 Play of Provisional Ball in Absence of Reasonable Possibility Original Ball Is Lost or Out of Bounds

Q. In the absence of reasonable possibility that a ball is lost outside a water hazard or is out of bounds, may the player play a provisional ball?

A. No. If a player plays a ball under such circumstances, the ball is not a provisional ball but the ball in play – See Decision 27-2a/2.

With regard to using 27-1 to avoid playing fom a worse place, as others have said there is no issue doing anything so long as you are playing within the Rules. It's only a game. Using S&D under Rule 27-1 is only the same as paying your £50 fine to get out of jail in Monopoly. . Rule 27-1 was put there and worded as it is on purpose.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

If I remember correctly, that discussion was about putting off the green, down the fairway into a perfectly good lie and then someone claiming it unplayable.
That was what people were having an issue with, not putting off the green into a terrible spot and claiming S&D.
But then, goalposts are there to be moved

Both scenarios are in my mind. And it comes down to the definition of unplayable. If it is at the players discretion whether a ball is unplayable or not then any fixed definition of unplayable is irrelevant?

I grant you that things wouyld be quite different if unplayable was defined in the rules.

I can putt off a green and my ball ends up in a place (could be anywhere) from where I judge my next shot is difficult. I may chose to define my shot (as opposed to my ball) as unplayable and take S&D - but I don't even have to declare it so take S&D as nowhere in 27-1a does the word unplayable appear.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Interesting discussion. Following Decision my also help clarify playing of PB.

27-2a/3 Play of Provisional Ball in Absence of Reasonable Possibility Original Ball Is Lost or Out of Bounds

Q. In the absence of reasonable possibility that a ball is lost outside a water hazard or is out of bounds, may the player play a provisional ball?

A. No. If a player plays a ball under such circumstances, the ball is not a provisional ball but the ball in play – See Decision 27-2a/2.

With regard to using 27-1 to avoid playing fom a worse place, as others have said there is no issue doing anything so long as you are playing within the Rules. It's only a game. Using S&D under Rule 27-1 is only the same as paying your £50 fine to get out of jail in Monopoly. . Rule 27-1 was put there and worded as it is on purpose.

This definately helps on PB front :thup:- thanks Mashie! Mind you if I hit my ball wrong direction and completely out of sight I'd be looking to play a PB even although PPs might say - 'that'll be OK - you'll find it'

 

[williamalex1]

Both scenarios are in my mind. And it comes down to the definition of unplayable. If it is at the players discretion whether a ball is unplayable or not then any fixed definition of unplayable is irrelevant?

I grant you that things wouyld be quite different if unplayable was defined in the rules.

I can putt off a green and my ball ends up in a place (could be anywhere) from where I judge my next shot is difficult. I may chose to define my shot (as opposed to my ball) as unplayable and take S&D - but I don't even have to declare it so take S&D as nowhere in 27-1a does the word unplayable appear.

Try rule 28 :thup:

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Try rule 28 :thup:

OK

Rule 28 Ball Unplayable

The player may deem his ball unplayable at any place on the course, except when the ball is in a water hazard. The player is the sole judge as to whether his ball is unplayable.

If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must, under penalty of one stroke:

a. Proceed under the stroke and distance provision of Rule 27-1 by playing a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or...


Doesn't define unplayable though - leaves that to the player

And so from the middle of the fairway and with a perfect lie I can if I so wish take S&D - and declare it unplayable if I want

 

[HawkeyeMS]

OK

Rule 28 Ball Unplayable

The player may deem his ball unplayable at any place on the course, except when the ball is in a water hazard. The player is the sole judge as to whether his ball is unplayable.

If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must, under penalty of one stroke:

a. Proceed under the stroke and distance provision of Rule 27-1 by playing a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or...


Doesn't define unplayable though - leaves that to the player

And so from the middle of the fairway and with a perfect lie I can if I so wish take S&D - and declare it unplayable if I want

Is it groundhog day? I have a feeling I have been here before

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Is it groundhog day? I have a feeling I have been here before

You have. My comparison with declaring a ball lost /playing a provisional and putting off a green into the middle of the fairway and taking S&D is now complete for me.