Foxholer
Blackballed
And in fact, it's certainly possible to 'declare a ball lost' - by uttering those words. There's just no concept of it in The Rules - it's 'deemed lost' by any of a number of actions.
Declaring a ball lost?
- Thread starter Opengav
- Start date
And in fact, it's certainly possible to 'declare a ball lost' - by uttering those words. There's just no concept of it in The Rules - it's 'deemed lost' by any of a number of actions.
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
sev112
Tour Winner
That's not what you said on Amanda's thread - I said that as soon as you drop a ball it is in play, but it turned out it's not if you then find the original ; must admit I was surprised at that ruling as well
Colin L
Tour Winner
I'm not quite sure what you are saying here. If you have not found your original ball and substitute another, the original ball is lost the moment you either make a stroke at the substituted one if playing from the tee or when the substitute ball is dropped at any other time. You can find your original ball moments later but it is lost. Decision 27-1/2
http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-27/#27-1/2
Foxholer
Blackballed
If that's the 'Wrong Ball; Deemed Unplayable' thread, then the circumstances are completely different.
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Blue in Munich
Crocked Professional Yeti Impersonator
when you play 3 off the tee the previous ball is lost; nothing deemed, nothing declared
Is the 1st ball actually lost, or just no longer the ball in play?
Foxholer
Blackballed
Definition of Lost Ball.
A ball is deemed “lost†if:
a. It is not found or identified as his by the player within five minutes after the player’s side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it; or
b. The player has made a stroke at a provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place (see Rule 27-2b); or
c. The player has put another ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance under Rule 26-1a, 27-1 or 28a; or
d. The player has put another ball in play because it is known or virtually certain that the ball, which has not been found, has been moved by an outside agency (see Rule 18-1), is in an obstruction (see Rule 24-3), is in an abnormal ground condition (see Rule 25-1c) or is in a water hazard (see Rule 26-1b or c); or
e. The player has made a stroke at a substituted ball.
Time spent in playing a wrong ball is not counted in the five-minute period allowed for search.
C. is the '3 off the Tee' one.
So not deemed lost, nor possibly even physically lost - but defined as a 'Lost Ball' by The Rules of Golf.
Blue in Munich
Crocked Professional Yeti Impersonator
Thanks Foxholer.
CheltenhamHacker
Journeyman Pro
Couldn't see the answer to this, but it made me think when you asked about how many off the tee.
if you hit your first one wild, so you hit a provisional, if that one is wild, can you hit a provisional provisional?
if you hit your first one wild, so you hit a provisional, if that one is wild, can you hit a provisional provisional?
MashieNiblick
Tour Winner
Yes - Note to Rule 27-2a
"Note: If a provisional ball played under Rule 27-2a might be lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds, the player may play another provisional ball. If another provisional ball is played, it bears the same relationship to the previous provisional ball as the first provisional ball bears to the original ball."
Old Skier
Tour Winner
The R&A have a great app for all phones and iPad which includes a very good rules quiz. How I wish more people would use it.
backwoodsman
Tour Winner
The point of the thread is that you can't "declare a ball lost" by words alone. It takes another action to make the ball lost.
For example, in the "that's lost, I'll hit another which is not a provisional" situation, it's not the saying it that counts, its the making the stroke that does. The words just make the following action unambiguous. Which is why the rules require you to make it clear if a ball is to be a provisional - to avoid unambiguity.
As to the question how many off the tee - once played "9 off the tee" - ie 4 provisionals. Boy, was I chuffed to find the original.
For example, in the "that's lost, I'll hit another which is not a provisional" situation, it's not the saying it that counts, its the making the stroke that does. The words just make the following action unambiguous. Which is why the rules require you to make it clear if a ball is to be a provisional - to avoid unambiguity.
As to the question how many off the tee - once played "9 off the tee" - ie 4 provisionals. Boy, was I chuffed to find the original.
CheltenhamHacker
Journeyman Pro
Something that has popped into my head. With the "9 off the tee" ie hitting 4 provisionals, does that mean that you could be allowed 25 minutes to seach for the balls (5 per ball), if you couldn't find any? Or is it a case of 5 minutes, for all of the balls?
MashieNiblick
Tour Winner
Could be 5 could be 25 depending on where the balls went
Decision 27/4 Time Permitted for Search for Original Ball and Provisional Ball
Q. Is a player allowed five minutes to search for his original ball and five more minutes to search for his provisional ball, or just a total of five minutes?
A. If the two balls are so close together that, in effect, both balls would be searched for simultaneously, a total of five minutes for search is allowed. Otherwise, the player is allowed to search five minutes for each ball.
Just remember to wave the group(s) behind through.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Had a read through this as a check on my understanding - on Sunday in our Club Champs a FC stuck a ball into a 'midden' off the tee so played a provisional. As we approached the 'midden' he said to me 'I'm not looking for that ball and will play my provisional'. Fair call I thought. And as described in this thread he's done just what he's entitled to do.
But whilst reading this I recalled a conversation I had had with him earlier in that same round when he stated that he hopes he knows the rules well and in a comp will use them to his advantage whenever he can - even if that appeared against the spirit of the game.
I mentioned taking Stroke & Distance when you'd put your ball in a horrid place - even though not lost or unplayable. He thought the ball had to be actually unplayable before we could take S&D so I reminded him that ball playable or unplayable was at the sole discretion of the player. He hadn't really considered this and I gave him an example.
I putt off the green into a horrid position (in bunker, down slope in some nasty rough, dreadfull bare patch or massive divot etc) so I take S&D. Now we here had a discussion on this at length in a previous time - and it seemed to me that the majority opinion was that I shouldn't take S&D in such circumstances - bad show - not in spirit of game etc.
But in reading this thread on declaring a ball lost - and considering what we are doing when deciding to ignore a ball played into 'trouble' when a subsequent provisional is in a good place - are we not doing EXACTLY the same thing as my S&D example. But are we not castigated for 'against spirit of game' in the latter situaton - but congratulated on our pragmatism and course management in the former.
Let's say I hit a rubbish tee shot that I am pretty darned sure is not going to be lost or unplayable - but will most 100% likely be in an absolute horrid place for my next shot. At that point I might say - I'm putting another ball into play - in which case I'm playing three and can go and find my first ball and pick it up. I might alternatively say I'm playing a provisional. If it's a good 'un - or indeed on balance simply gives me better options than my first, then I will just competely ignore my first ball saying I'm not bothered looking for it and go play my provisional.
Now are the above any different at all from putting off the green as described in my example and taking S&D. Why should 'taking S&D having putted off a green' be frowned upon and against the spirit of the game when 'ball off tee into horrid place' so play provisional etc is good course management?
But whilst reading this I recalled a conversation I had had with him earlier in that same round when he stated that he hopes he knows the rules well and in a comp will use them to his advantage whenever he can - even if that appeared against the spirit of the game.
I mentioned taking Stroke & Distance when you'd put your ball in a horrid place - even though not lost or unplayable. He thought the ball had to be actually unplayable before we could take S&D so I reminded him that ball playable or unplayable was at the sole discretion of the player. He hadn't really considered this and I gave him an example.
I putt off the green into a horrid position (in bunker, down slope in some nasty rough, dreadfull bare patch or massive divot etc) so I take S&D. Now we here had a discussion on this at length in a previous time - and it seemed to me that the majority opinion was that I shouldn't take S&D in such circumstances - bad show - not in spirit of game etc.
But in reading this thread on declaring a ball lost - and considering what we are doing when deciding to ignore a ball played into 'trouble' when a subsequent provisional is in a good place - are we not doing EXACTLY the same thing as my S&D example. But are we not castigated for 'against spirit of game' in the latter situaton - but congratulated on our pragmatism and course management in the former.
Let's say I hit a rubbish tee shot that I am pretty darned sure is not going to be lost or unplayable - but will most 100% likely be in an absolute horrid place for my next shot. At that point I might say - I'm putting another ball into play - in which case I'm playing three and can go and find my first ball and pick it up. I might alternatively say I'm playing a provisional. If it's a good 'un - or indeed on balance simply gives me better options than my first, then I will just competely ignore my first ball saying I'm not bothered looking for it and go play my provisional.
Now are the above any different at all from putting off the green as described in my example and taking S&D. Why should 'taking S&D having putted off a green' be frowned upon and against the spirit of the game when 'ball off tee into horrid place' so play provisional etc is good course management?
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As long as your playing within the rules I can't see a problem. Sometimes the rules go against you, and sometimes for you I can't see where 'spirit of the game' comes into it.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Well I can assure you that it did
Putt off the green and then put it back to whence it started taking the one shot 'penalty'...
Didn't go down that well with some - and after all that is precisely what you are doing when you declare on the tee that you are putting anotehr ball into play - regardless of whether or not your origonal ball is lost or unplayable - or indeed playable or not lost
backwoodsman
Tour Winner
Both actions perfectly legit. One might argue that it's "against the spirit" for a FC to try to convince the oppo that they shouldn't take an action permitted by the rules? (Just thinking out loud...)Well I can assure you that it did
Putt off the green and then put it back to whence it started taking the one shot 'penalty'...
Didn't go down that well with some - and after all that is precisely what you are doing when you declare on the tee that you are putting anotehr ball into play - regardless of whether or not your origonal ball is lost or unplayable - or indeed playable or not lost
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
I have absolutley no idea; and as the premise to your post seems to revolve around both this and the mis-conception that it has anything to do with a situation where you have a known alternative (the position of the provisional), it's probably best to start a new thread if you tink there's actually any related issue at all!
williamalex1
Money List Winner
How to win matches and influence people . sad.
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