Provisional Ball Confusion

[Dutch Boy]

Stroke play on a course not previously played.
Player A drives into high rough on left.
Announces and plays a provisional which landed closer to the hole than where the original ball is thought to be.
Player decides that ball is probably in a difficult position and does not search and plays the PB onto the green.
Very shortly after Player B finds A's ball in a red penalty area (the players were unaware it existed).
Player B states that A must abandon the PB & take Lateral relief as per Rule 18.3c(3) but player A states that R18.3c(2) dot point 2 applies.
Who is correct?
Thanks in advance

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Stroke play on a course not previously played.
Player A drives into high rough on left.
Announces and plays a provisional which landed closer to the hole than where the original ball is thought to be.
Player decides that ball is probably in a difficult position and does not search and plays the PB onto the green.
Very shortly after Player B finds A's ball in a red penalty area (the players were unaware it existed).
Player B states that A must abandon the PB & take Lateral relief as per Rule 18.3c(3) but player A states that R18.3c(2) dot point 2 applies.
Who is correct?
Thanks in advance

This immediately normally makes the provisional the ball in play and whatever happens to the original ball and where it is, found or not, is then irrelevant. Question though. Was the original ball found closer to the hole than where the provisional was played from, and was it found within three minutes of the player starting to look for it.

Note I believe Player B is missing the important point at the very start of 18.3c(3)…‘When the provisional ball has not yet become the ball in play…’. But my question remains about time and position of original ball.

 

[Dutch Boy]

This immediately normally makes the provisional the ball in play and whatever happens to the original ball and where it is, found or not, is then irrelevant. Question though. Was the original ball found closer to the hole than where the provisional was played from, and was it found within three minutes of the player starting to look for it.

Thanks. No, the ball was found in the area it was thought to be. Player A did not begin to search so the 3 minutes never started

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Thanks. No, the ball was found in the area it was thought to be. Player A did not begin to search so the 3 minutes never started

The 3mins rule applies whether the player himself actually started looking when he got to where the ball was thought to lie. So question remains … was the ball found by Player B within 3mins of Player A reaching the vicinity of where the ball was lying in the PA.

Note..I’m just using my own logic and rules understanding in this - I’m not a rules expert…and will happily be corrected and apologise for being wrong.

 

[Steven Rules]

A was correct.

The provisional ball became the ball in play when it was played from a spot nearer the hole than where the original ball was estimated to be. Rule 18.3c(2) second bullet point applies.

Rule 18.3c(3) is not applicable because the provisional ball had become the ball in play as outlined above.

 

[salfordlad]

The 3mins rule applies whether the player himself actually started looking when he got to where the ball was thought to lie. So question remains … was the ball found by Player B within 3mins of Player A reaching the vicinity of where the ball was lying in the PA.

Note..I’m just using my own logic and rules understanding in this - I’m not a rules expert…and will happily be corrected and apologise for being wrong.

If the player, their caddie, partner or partner caddie do not commence search, the clock does not start.

 

[Neilds]

The 3mins rule applies whether the player himself actually started looking when he got to where the ball was thought to lie. So question remains … was the ball found by Player B within 3mins of Player A reaching the vicinity of where the ball was lying in the PA.

Note..I’m just using my own logic and rules understanding in this - I’m not a rules expert…and will happily be corrected and apologise for being wrong.

Just because the provisional landed nearer to the hole is immaterial. If the provisional is played then it becomes in play.

 

[Steven Rules]

Question though. Was the original ball found closer to the hole than where the provisional was played from, and was it found within three minutes of the player starting to look for it.

These questions have no bearing from a Rules perspective.

18.3c(2) is explicit. When the provisional ball Is played from a spot nearer the hole than where the original ball Is estimated to be, the original ball is no longer in play even if it is then found on the course before the end of the three-minute search time or is found nearer the hole than had been estimated.

The 3mins rule applies whether the player himself actually started looking when he got to where the ball was thought to lie.

Correct. The search time begins when the player or their caddie begins the search or when the player is in a position to begin the search but (as in this instance) chooses not to.....but still not relevant in this scenario.

Edit - see salfordlad's post at #14.

 

[Steven Rules]

If the player, their caddie, partner or partner caddie do not commence search, the clock does not start.

I expressed a different view at #8. Could you please review and comment on that post.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

This immediately normally makes the provisional the ball in play and whatever happens to the original ball and where it is, found or not, is then irrelevant. Question though. Was the original ball found closer to the hole than where the provisional was played from, and was it found within three minutes of the player starting to look for it.

Note I believe Player B is missing the important point at the very start of 18.3c(3)…‘When the provisional ball has not yet become the ball in play…’. But my question remains about time and position of original ball.

Surely that is completely irrelevant . As Steven Rules says, if the provisional ball is nearer the hole than where the original ball is estimated to be, and is played then it becomes the ball in play.
If the original ball is subsequently located , it’s location and whether found within 3 mins , is irrelevant.

Edit. Sorry hadn’t seen post 8

 

[Steven Rules]

Just because the provisional landed nearer to the hole is immaterial. If the provisional is played then it becomes in play.

Whether the provisional ball is nearer the hole or further from the hole than the estimated spot of the original ball is highly material. The provisional ball may be played more than once and only becomes the ball in play when it is played from a spot nearer the hole than where the original ball Is estimated to be

 

[Neilds]

Whether the provisional ball is nearer the hole or further from the hole than the estimated spot of the original ball is highly material. The provisional ball may be played more than once and only becomes the ball in play when it is played from a spot nearer the hole than where the original ball Is estimated to be

I understand this, I was referring to the post that specifically mentioned that the provisional was in play because it landed nearer to the hole.

 

[Steven Rules]

I understand this, I was referring to the post that specifically mentioned that the provisional was in play because it landed nearer to the hole.

Ok

 

[salfordlad]

I expressed a different view at #8. Could you please review and comment on that post.

There is no obligation under the Rules for a player to search for their ball. No unrelated party can take an action that starts the clock. The player can just carry on with the provisional. However, if a ball is found that may be the original before the provisional has become the ball in play, the player is obligated to identify if the ball is theirs.
The circumstance when the clock may be started without the player searching is a special case covered in the definition of Lost, the situation where a player is deliberately delaying the start of search to try to get an advantage. Absent that special situation, the clock doesn't start.

 

[Steven Rules]

There is no obligation under the Rules for a player to search for their ball. No unrelated party can take an action that starts the clock. The player can just carry on with the provisional. However, if a ball is found that may be the original before the provisional has become the ball in play, the player is obligated to identify if the ball is theirs.
The circumstance when the clock may be started without the player searching is a special case covered in the definition of Lost, the situation where a player is deliberately delaying the start of search to try to get an advantage. Absent that special situation, the clock doesn't start.

Thanks. I see the error of my ways. I was incorrectly extrapolating the 'special case' (as you describe it in #14) to other situations beyond what the Rules permit.

 

[Dutch Boy]

Thanks all for your comments.

 

[bobmac]

Just declare it a lost ball and move on.

Just kidding

 

[salfordlad]

Thanks. I see the error of my ways. I was incorrectly extrapolating the 'special case' (as you describe it in #14) to other situations beyond what the Rules permit.

18.3c(2)/2 is a nice elaboration of the principles (and that last paragraph is particularly important in the match play case).

 

[Steven Rules]

Just declare it a lost ball and move on.

Just kidding

The Rules are explicit. You cannot declare a ball lost. Such a declaration has no relevance under the Rules. See the definition of Lost.

 

[bobmac]

The Rules are explicit. You cannot declare a ball lost. Such a declaration has no relevance under the Rules. See the definition of Lost.

Please note the SECOND line of my post