CR-Par

[wjemather]

I didn't suggest they'd guess, I believe that they interpret the guidelines differently, and this might be for several reasons:
- An inability to estimate distances
- A difference of opinion in a handicap golfer's ability
- A subconscious desire for a better/worse score

Your list does not constitute "interpret(ing) the guidelines differently".

 

[D-S]

This isn't interpretation (of the rule/guideline); it's judgement (of distance, difficulty and ability).
It also isn't a considerable amount.
Additionally, borderline cases are a tiny minority of the application of MLS - the vast majority being a simple +1 for the ball lying within 5 feet of the hole; and the vast majority of balls picked up elsewhere are recorded as nett double bogeys.

Clearly you have not seen MLS in practice in the same places as I have done - it is a considerable amount.

Swapping interpretation for judgement does not make it any more accurate. Saying it is judgement not guesswork does not make it any more accurate.

Most importantly the resulting scores and therefore handicaps over time sadly are such that I wouldn’t dream of competing against people employing it.

 

[Swango1980]

MLS is a defined process with clear guidelines. It is not an exercise in guessing what the most likely score might have bebeen.

But golfers are not robots programmed to follow specific guidelines.

I reckon you tell a golfer they can simply put Most Likely Score, more than 90% will use their imagination to dream up a number, the few remaining will officially measure their yardage to hole and select the score according to the guidelines.

There is a lot more wiggle room with MLS, compared to holing the ball and actually knowing your score

 

[wjemather]

But golfers are not robots programmed to follow specific guidelines.

There are countless rules and guidelines that golfers manage to follow all the time without being robots, and many of them require judgement in their application.

 

[doublebogey7]

This isn't interpretation (of the rule/guideline); it's judgement (of distance, difficulty and ability).
It also isn't a considerable amount.
Additionally, borderline situations are a tiny minority of the application of MLS - the vast majority being a simple +1 for the ball lying within 5 feet of the hole; and the vast majority of balls picked up elsewhere are recorded as nett double bogeys.

Exactly this, I have since WHS recorded all my scores including using MLS. I find myself seriously thinking about my hole score at most 2 or three times a round and never when having a good round, which would likely be the only ones counting. Currently my all rounds handicap is exactly the same as my WHS handicap and has never varied by more than 0.7. The very idea that the use of MLS will make a material difference to handicaps is for the birds. Personally think it would be way better than the curerent compromised system we have for 4 balls, which only catches extremly good rounds.

 

[D-S]

Exactly this, I have since WHS recorded all my scores including using MLS. I find myself seriously thinking about my hole score at most 2 or three times a round and never when having a good round, which would likely be the only ones counting. Currently my all rounds handicap is exactly the same as my WHS handicap and has never varied by more than 0.7. The very idea that the use of MLS will make a material difference to handicaps is for the birds. Personally think it would be way better than the curerent compromised system we have for 4 balls, which only catches extremly good rounds.

Have you ever played in countries that routinely use MLS? Have you seen it in practice with normal players? Have you seen it in 4BB matchplay or 2 out of 4 games?

 

[doublebogey7]

Have you ever played in countries that routinely use MLS? Have you seen it in practice with normal players? Have you seen it in 4BB matchplay or 2 out of 4 games?

No I haven't but I don't see how such limited evidence would help any debate.

 

[Deleted member 15717]

Most certainly are not, USA for eg happy to use matchplay scores, and "most likely score" whatever that could mean. It's a nonsense to say that all countries are calculating handicaps the same, they simply are not

The calculation for a score differential is exactly the same globally.

(113/Slope Rating) x (Adjusted Gross Score - Course Rating - PCC adjustment)

 

[Backache]

The calculation for a score differential is exactly the same globally.

(113/Slope Rating) x (Adjusted Gross Score - Course Rating - PCC adjustment)

The thing is the rather fundamental thing of the score for the number of shots does not appear to be the same globally, which is lucky as it means we can pretty much choose our own handicap with minimal interference from the authorities.

 

[cliveb]

Additionally, borderline situations are a tiny minority of the application of MLS - the vast majority being a simple +1 for the ball lying within 5 feet of the hole;

So basically you're saying that MLS makes every putt within 5 feet a gimme, right?
This is living in a world of fantasy. Average club golfers wouldn't dream of giving a 5ft putt.
There must be some data on the make percentage of 5ft putts by club golfers - and I'm guessing it's a long way short of 100%.

 

[Deleted member 15717]

The thing is the rather fundamental thing of the score for the number of shots does not appear to be the same globally, which is lucky as it means we can pretty much choose our own handicap with minimal interference from the authorities.

But that wasn’t really the point.

The original point was about WHS and the reason behind it….and individual countries/managing organisations can have local implementations/changes due to how the game is played in those areas.

You can’t ’choose your own handicap’, and ultimately there are large scoring variations at play throughout all levels of golf. Will there be some who bend the rules slightly to their advantage? Of course. But there was under UHS too.

Hell, you could look at my own handicap record. As low as 0.8 at one point, as high as 6.5 at others. These things can happen

 

[wjemather]

So basically you're saying that MLS makes every putt within 5 feet a gimme, right?
This is living in a world of fantasy. Average club golfers wouldn't dream of giving a 5ft putt.
There must be some data on the make percentage of 5ft putts by club golfers - and I'm guessing it's a long way short of 100%.

No. MLS is saying that from 5 feet and in, the most likely result is a one-putt.
Gimmes have nothing to do with it, although MLS is applied after a gimme.
Yes, there is data. They make just over half; i.e. it's most likely they one-putt.

 

[D-S]

No I haven't but I don't see how such limited evidence would help any debate.

But your assertion in post #385 does?

 

[doublebogey7]

But your assertion in post #385 does?

No it doesn't, was just showing that my experience is different to yours. In this debate frankly neither experience offers any help to get to the reality, but the authorities have plenty of data that help them come to the decisions they have.

 

[D-S]

No it doesn't, was just showing that my experience is different to yours. In this debate frankly neither experience offers any help to get to the reality, but the authorities have plenty of data that help them come to the decisions they have.

Yes exactly, the authorities in charge of golf in the UK obviously have data to support the view that it is a system that does not give a result that they would be happy to endorse, hence the decision that they have reached.

 

[wjemather]

Yes exactly, the authorities in charge of golf in the UK obviously have data to support the view that it is a system that does not give a result that they would be happy to endorse, hence the decision that they have reached.

It wasn't a technical decision but a cultural one (as advised by the EG lead at the time).

 

[cliveb]

No. MLS is saying that from 5 feet and in, the most likely result is a one-putt.
Gimmes have nothing to do with it, although MLS is applied after a gimme.
Yes, there is data. They make just over half; i.e. it's most likely they one-putt.

Let's be generous and say "just over half" is 60%
If someone plays a round and records five 1-putts from 5 feet as per the MLS rules, then the data tells us that of those five, two them would likely have been 2-putts. Therefore the score submitted for handicapping is 2 less than it should be.

 

[clubchamp98]

Let's be generous and say "just over half" is 60%
If someone plays a round and records five 1-putts from 5 feet as per the MLS rules, then the data tells us that of those five, two them would likely have been 2-putts. Therefore the score submitted for handicapping is 2 less than it should be.

I can’t fathom where they got 5 foot from.
Even the pros miss from there on the very best greens!

 

[AussieKB]

Just ask Rory

 

[clubchamp98]

Just ask Rory

MLS really .
Imo if you havnt got time to putt out you shouldn’t be playing.
It’s a fundamental of the game 18 holes