Complaints about other players handicaps

jim8flog

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Some of my experience with existing players are that their handicaps are too low. When we have done the annual review we got more complaints from players that have had their handicaps increased than those that had theirs decreased.

One question comes is "are those that are complaining putting in enough cards so their handicap reflects their ability?"
 

Swango1980

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Envy is a terrible thing. We have a couple of decent junior ladies and some new members who came via our academy and got their first handicaps and are now continuing to improve and so winning a fair few comps. I thought men were bad for moaning about "bandits" but some of the comments I've heard in the last few weeks are shocking. The ironic thing is they are putting in cards not only in comps but for general play so there is an audit trail of their improvement and the handicap is being adjusted accordingly. Unless there is some very compelling evidence of manipulation I would let the handicap secretary and the WHS do their thing
The rapidly improving high handicappers, I'm sure, absolutely love going out and demolishing fields in many of the competitions they play. I'm sure they love the wins and seeing their handicap come down.

Of course, after a period of time, maybe a few years time, these high handicappers who were loving it, will become lower handicappers that don't win as much. And they then become the frustrated golfers that get annoyed with the winning scores of the latest group of new, rapidly improving golfers.

If only the system could award a more "restricted" handicap when a player has very few scores on their record. Maybe some of these new golfers won't get the gloriously successful competition performances in their early rounds, but at least the system is more refined at finding their correct handicap as they submit more and more scores up to the full 20 on their record.

I'd be interested to know if there is any research as to how ones handicap changes, in general, from the time they only have 3 scores entered to the time they have 20 entered. If a player gets an initial handicap of Index of 30.0, what would that generally be once they get their 20 scores in. Higher, lower or about the same?
 

HeftyHacker

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The rapidly improving high handicappers, I'm sure, absolutely love going out and demolishing fields in many of the competitions they play. I'm sure they love the wins and seeing their handicap come down.

Of course, after a period of time, maybe a few years time, these high handicappers who were loving it, will become lower handicappers that don't win as much. And they then become the frustrated golfers that get annoyed with the winning scores of the latest group of new, rapidly improving golfers.

If only the system could award a more "restricted" handicap when a player has very few scores on their record. Maybe some of these new golfers won't get the gloriously successful competition performances in their early rounds, but at least the system is more refined at finding their correct handicap as they submit more and more scores up to the full 20 on their record.

I'd be interested to know if there is any research as to how ones handicap changes, in general, from the time they only have 3 scores entered to the time they have 20 entered. If a player gets an initial handicap of Index of 30.0, what would that generally be once they get their 20 scores in. Higher, lower or about the same?

As a relatively new golfer I can probably throw some light on this.

My first handicap was 16.4 in April 2021 - which was based on my best score of 3 submitted cards (an 87), less 2.

This was immediately following some lessons and would probably have been much higher prior to the lessons (when I was chuffed if I shot in the high 90s).

By the time I finished that season (end of October) I had 18 cards in and was sat at 11.4 having dropped steadily with a couple of small fluctuations up as the number of "best of x" increased.

By the time I had 20 cards in it had increased slightly to 11.9 (March 2022).

In 2022 I got it down to 10.1 and had high hopes of getting to single figures.

In 2023 I had my second born and I obviously played a lot less golf and practiced far less as a result - it has steadily increased back up to 12.9 and has been there or thereabouts and I would say is a decent representation of where I am atm.

I'll give the full breakdown of the first 20 cards below:

3 cards: 16.4
4: 16.1
5: 14.3
6: 14.7
7 and 8: 15.7
9 to 11: 14.6
12: 14.7
13 and 14: 13.1
15: 12.8
16: 11.5
17: 12.1
18: 11.4
19: 11.9
20: 11.9
 

Swango1980

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As a relatively new golfer I can probably throw some light on this.

My first handicap was 16.4 in April 2021 - which was based on my best score of 3 submitted cards (an 87), less 2.

This was immediately following some lessons and would probably have been much higher prior to the lessons (when I was chuffed if I shot in the high 90s).

By the time I finished that season (end of October) I had 18 cards in and was sat at 11.4 having dropped steadily with a couple of small fluctuations up as the number of "best of x" increased.

By the time I had 20 cards in it had increased slightly to 11.9 (March 2022).

In 2022 I got it down to 10.1 and had high hopes of getting to single figures.

In 2023 I had my second born and I obviously played a lot less golf and practiced far less as a result - it has steadily increased back up to 12.9 and has been there or thereabouts and I would say is a decent representation of where I am atm.

I'll give the full breakdown of the first 20 cards below:

3 cards: 16.4
4: 16.1
5: 14.3
6: 14.7
7 and 8: 15.7
9 to 11: 14.6
12: 14.7
13 and 14: 13.1
15: 12.8
16: 11.5
17: 12.1
18: 11.4
19: 11.9
20: 11.9
Cheers. Certainly interesting from an individual perspective.

I'd hypothesise that in general, most golfers will come down in handicap between 3 scores and 20 scores. Furthermore, I'd imagine that the higher that starting handicap is, the bigger the drop in handicap by the time those 20 scores are entered.

Currently, when a golfer submits 3 scores, 2 shots are taken off their best score differential to get their Index. I suspect that this is probably inadequate for most golfers, especially the higher the handicap that player is. And in rarer occasions, where a players starting handicap is very low, then the 2 shots may be a bit too much, in general.
 

2blue

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The rapidly improving high handicappers, I'm sure, absolutely love going out and demolishing fields in many of the competitions they play. I'm sure they love the wins and seeing their handicap come down.

Of course, after a period of time, maybe a few years time, these high handicappers who were loving it, will become lower handicappers that don't win as much. And they then become the frustrated golfers that get annoyed with the winning scores of the latest group of new, rapidly improving golfers.

If only the system could award a more "restricted" handicap when a player has very few scores on their record. Maybe some of these new golfers won't get the gloriously successful competition performances in their early rounds, but at least the system is more refined at finding their correct handicap as they submit more and more scores up to the full 20 on their record.

I'd be interested to know if there is any research as to how ones handicap changes, in general, from the time they only have 3 scores entered to the time they have 20 entered. If a player gets an initial handicap of Index of 30.0, what would that generally be once they get their 20 scores in. Higher, lower or about the same?
Clubs could only allow players to enter Comps who have at least a full 20 Q cards in. However, I guess if you allow them to enter after just 3 cards they will at least come down pretty quickly. Sadly it may take some the best part of a year to feel they have become 'part of the Club'. I think most Clubs have Divisions to deal with the problem.
 

HeftyHacker

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in rarer occasions, where a players starting handicap is very low, then the 2 shots may be a bit too much, in general.

This happened to a pal of mine, very good golfer but had never been a member of a club before. He submitted his 3 cards and was given a handicap of 1.8. The card that was based on remains the best card on his record.

It's now levelled out to 5.8.
 

cunnini

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I'm getting called a bandit by mates at present - but not sure what i can do about it at present - i'll explain:-

23+ years ago, played off single figures - from then until December 2022 I moved to South of England and played once or twice a year. Joined golf club December 2022 - handicap 24. Herniated a disc in late Jan22 (not playing golf!). Played in mainly comps through the year, currently 20.7. I only play about twice a month, hence why mainly comps.

Here's the rub - since October I've only played in Winter knockout, and the odd Sunday morning with mates - i'm into last 16 of the singles knockout, but i've been practising a lot so as an example, 11 holes (one a temporary hole) a couple of weeks ago and i was 7 over. I'd like to be cut, but no opportunity to put a card in, and winter comps are non-qualifying. When i've played friendly rounds course partially open and one of those holes isn't even on our scorecard as it utilises the short game practice area which is on higher ground.........

Thoughts?
 

Swango1980

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I'm getting called a bandit by mates at present - but not sure what i can do about it at present - i'll explain:-

23+ years ago, played off single figures - from then until December 2022 I moved to South of England and played once or twice a year. Joined golf club December 2022 - handicap 24. Herniated a disc in late Jan22 (not playing golf!). Played in mainly comps through the year, currently 20.7. I only play about twice a month, hence why mainly comps.

Here's the rub - since October I've only played in Winter knockout, and the odd Sunday morning with mates - i'm into last 16 of the singles knockout, but i've been practising a lot so as an example, 11 holes (one a temporary hole) a couple of weeks ago and i was 7 over. I'd like to be cut, but no opportunity to put a card in, and winter comps are non-qualifying. When i've played friendly rounds course partially open and one of those holes isn't even on our scorecard as it utilises the short game practice area which is on higher ground.........

Thoughts?
I can't see whay you are a bandit, if you can't put cards in anyway. A proper bandit is someone that manipulate their handicap to be high, probably by not submitting many scores to keep it at an already high level. Clearly, you don't seem to fit that profile.

Whereas there is a guy we played with whose handicap went from 18-20 (pre WHS) to 28 (Course handicap) post WHS. He has got much better over the last year, but refused to enter scores each weekend last year when we all played for coffees, even though most of the rest of us did. He not only never needs to buy the coffee, but he usually wins easily. Last week 24 of us played, and he won (as predicted) with 42 points, 3 points ahead of second place. And yesterday, he shot 51 points with a blob (which was very much down to bad luck rather than horrific play to be honest).

I suspect your best bet is to make sure you submit as many scores as you can once the course allows it.
 

wjemather

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I'm getting called a bandit by mates at present - but not sure what i can do about it at present - i'll explain:-

23+ years ago, played off single figures - from then until December 2022 I moved to South of England and played once or twice a year. Joined golf club December 2022 - handicap 24. Herniated a disc in late Jan22 (not playing golf!). Played in mainly comps through the year, currently 20.7. I only play about twice a month, hence why mainly comps.

Here's the rub - since October I've only played in Winter knockout, and the odd Sunday morning with mates - i'm into last 16 of the singles knockout, but i've been practising a lot so as an example, 11 holes (one a temporary hole) a couple of weeks ago and i was 7 over. I'd like to be cut, but no opportunity to put a card in, and winter comps are non-qualifying. When i've played friendly rounds course partially open and one of those holes isn't even on our scorecard as it utilises the short game practice area which is on higher ground.........

Thoughts?
If you are able to submit general play scores on the odd Sunday morning, you should do so. Otherwise, if you have no opportunity to submit any acceptable scores, and you are certain that your handicap index is no longer reflective of your current ability and needs reducing, you should note your scores from these matches and present them as evidence to your handicap committee.
 

cunnini

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wjemather - but they're matches, so i've not finished holes etc - putts conceded, at times holes conceded, etc. I'm not sure what 'evidence' i can provide?
 

wjemather

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wjemather - but they're matches, so i've not finished holes etc - putts conceded, at times holes conceded, etc. I'm not sure what 'evidence' i can provide?
Evidence from match play can be used during a handicap review. Most not-holed-out hole scores can be estimated with reasonable accuracy; concessions should simply be noted as such and from what range.
 
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