D
Deleted member 1147
Guest
I’m offended by the use of the word “period”.I'm just offended period
Should I put a full stop after the word period or does the word itself suffice?
We’re Brits, it’s a full stop
Blm-Renaming the masters
- Thread starter popeye
- Start date
We’re Brits, it’s a full stop
PNWokingham
Journeyman Pro
Oh nah, I dont want the Major moved from Augusta. I can just understand the calls for the actual name of the tournament itself to be renamed. Its really not that much of a big deal to rename it something that doesnt offend anyone is it? People in here are quite literally arguing because they dont want a name change, but I bet those saying it are white? (I am too). If the term "master" is offending people then just change it, god almighty its just a name
Just reading this thread and it is clear that the yoghurt knitters are really taking over and are latching on to everything. The danger is that the real important issues inclcuding continuing to reduce racism will be lost in a haze of irrelvant propoganda, rhetoric and unnecessary campaigns. If The Masters was a genuinly named after racist attitudes or policies then sure, it has to go, but it seems clear that it was nothing to do with that. If we were to change everrything that would offend someone for whatever reason the world would suffocate and implode.
The key in all of this is changing views, prejudices, perceptions and opening up opportunities for all - and this seems to have improved in every decade that i have been alive and hopefully will continue. As Chris mentioned, education is key as there will always be prejudices, whether racial, political, eletist, sexual etc etc. The club policies have evolved as society has but the elitist old-school network at the top end of parts of society will never change and membership is totally off the agenda for 99.99% of people and always will be. History cannot change, but the future can evolve as we learn the lessons from it. We do not, in the most part, need to get rid of statues, change names etc. We need to learn and understand why wrongs were committed, prejudices formed and make sure that we improve the future.
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sunshine
Well-known member
This has inevitably gone off topic but I thought it was an interesting debate. Context is important:
The name Augusta triggers images of a perfectly manicured golf course, an ultra exclusive private club where only the richest and most well connected can play. I imagined the golf course is located in a fabulously wealthy neighbourhood like Wentworth. But 24% of the population of Augusta are classed as persons in poverty (US census). That's a pretty shocking statistic for a town in the most wealthy country in the world.
I also think of historical issues with no black members (until 1990!) and no black golfers allowed to play in the Masters, and even the fried chicken comment from Fuzzy Zoeller about Tiger's champions' dinner. These rules may have gone, but they're not forgotten. I find it hard to reconcile that a club in Augusta, where 65% of the population is black / African American, can have zero black members (probably 1 token member today).
When you look at the facts, it is easy to see how an uninformed person could misunderstand the origin of the word "Masters" in this tournament. I don't agree with it being offensive, but there is a lot of work needed to update the image of the tournament. They seem to be on the right lines today, but golf has a lot of catching up to do. Some of the responses on this thread show a real ignorance of racism, but if you have never experienced / seen the impact, then why would you take it seriously.
The name Augusta triggers images of a perfectly manicured golf course, an ultra exclusive private club where only the richest and most well connected can play. I imagined the golf course is located in a fabulously wealthy neighbourhood like Wentworth. But 24% of the population of Augusta are classed as persons in poverty (US census). That's a pretty shocking statistic for a town in the most wealthy country in the world.
I also think of historical issues with no black members (until 1990!) and no black golfers allowed to play in the Masters, and even the fried chicken comment from Fuzzy Zoeller about Tiger's champions' dinner. These rules may have gone, but they're not forgotten. I find it hard to reconcile that a club in Augusta, where 65% of the population is black / African American, can have zero black members (probably 1 token member today).
When you look at the facts, it is easy to see how an uninformed person could misunderstand the origin of the word "Masters" in this tournament. I don't agree with it being offensive, but there is a lot of work needed to update the image of the tournament. They seem to be on the right lines today, but golf has a lot of catching up to do. Some of the responses on this thread show a real ignorance of racism, but if you have never experienced / seen the impact, then why would you take it seriously.
Blue in Munich
Crocked Professional Yeti Impersonator
Oh nah, I dont want the Major moved from Augusta. I can just understand the calls for the actual name of the tournament itself to be renamed. Its really not that much of a big deal to rename it something that doesnt offend anyone is it? People in here are quite literally arguing because they dont want a name change, but I bet those saying it are white? (I am too). If the term "master" is offending people then just change it, god almighty its just a name
So who is actually offended by it?
CliveW
Tour Winner
I'm offended that you call it an "English" thread.
D
Deleted Member 1156
Guest
I feel a new thread coming on to go with all the 'Today' threads.
"Today I was offended by......."
?
"Today I was offended by......."
?
chrisd
Major Champion
Ah - get you there - I obviously meant English language!
Ooops forgot Scots dont speak English ??
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USER1999
Grand Slam Winner
It's an invitational. The solution is easy, just invite someone other than the top 50 golfers. That is elitist. Be more inclusive, broaden the entry criteria, have more choppers.
drdel
Tour Rookie
So Lewis Hamilton's F1 car is to be 'black'!
I think such actions may negatively impact the ultimate aim by trivialisation.
I think such actions may negatively impact the ultimate aim by trivialisation.
Smiffy
Grand Slam Winner
In the quiet words of Fun Boy Three...................... "The Lunatics have taken over the Asylum"
Lazkir
Head Pro
Sports_Fanatic
Assistant Pro
Sorry in advance as i appreciate this won't be a popular post, but reading this and the sexism thread and to me there are some really bad takes. I know it's just the challenge of a forum, and I'm not suggesting people on this forum are racist, I'm just suggesting that people could probably listen better to conversations being had rather than sweep them away.
I know the original article was potentially designed to provoke a reaction, so I'm not suggesting changing the name of the Masters unless there was clear swell of opinion, but it's quite clear that golf does have a race problem. Even with potentially the greatest player being black, the participation figures for minority groups and also women are very low. That may be a society in general issue (for example wealth in different communities) rather than specific to golf, but I think we should be more open to that fact and potentially have a stronger conversation then trying to make the point look like irrational by focusing on things such as paint being removed from a store.
On black caddies, the words of the previous chairman are damming and odd to think it still present as an issue in the 80s. One poster said the caddies complained when rules changed so that's a sign perhaps it wasn't a clear cut thing - if you're limited to certain jobs by discrimination and someone takes away the better paying element then you would be annoyed. Doesn't mean the discrimination is right to begin with, only that there was potentially an argument for using the club caddies if it were a diverse group by choice to begin with.
On F1 cars, how can you be upset (which tone suggests) around a car changing livery. It happens often as with helmets, and just a way for an employer to support an employee, raise awareness of a global movement and in this world it's probably good for the brand. They're not saying that solves the issue, or that silver cars were the issue to begin with, just keeping the discussion in the spotlight for a little longer rather than trivialising it. Agree it will only be useful if they take action to support change but it's something they can easily do now so why be concerned about it. I also think it looks quite sharp as a livery.
On Augusta itself, is a rule change enough to say an organisation doesn't have race issues when it's built on the back of them as some have suggested here. Yes they've changed it now, but the horse has bolted so it's arguably no more than a token effort and hasn't actually changed anything. You've got a club in a fairly poor district, in a state where 65% of population is black, yet you've got a rich, predominantly white male club in the middle of it. Doesn't seem quite right. Now the answer probably isn't to admit members to become more diverse because of the wealth has given it a different divide, but perhaps more could be done by them to grow the game in the community. I don't see a lot of press articles on this (perhaps it happens?) although I do congratulate them on the Women's event and the junior drive, pitch and putt tournament and I believe donations for Covid support and others into the community. A membership with that wealth and that history (i appreciate not current members who are likely to be more open) probably need to do a lot more if they are continuing to be one of our leading weeks in golf for the world to see so that it's unequivocal for reporters looking for a story that golf is open to all.
Anecdotes about general improvement over the decades - yes it has improved, I'm white so don't know but I expect there are less obvious discrimination (e.g. offensive words said out loud), but I would still suggest that statistics still show minority groups over represented in areas such as poverty, education and crime. If things were equal and had improved to make these discussions go away then that shouldn't be the case unless you think those are genetic issues.
So yes, name changes and statues being pulled down probably seem pointless, but if it helps the bigger picture or gets people engaged, then I'm personally not going to be offended about having the conversation on it. After all, it's just a name as some say.
I know the original article was potentially designed to provoke a reaction, so I'm not suggesting changing the name of the Masters unless there was clear swell of opinion, but it's quite clear that golf does have a race problem. Even with potentially the greatest player being black, the participation figures for minority groups and also women are very low. That may be a society in general issue (for example wealth in different communities) rather than specific to golf, but I think we should be more open to that fact and potentially have a stronger conversation then trying to make the point look like irrational by focusing on things such as paint being removed from a store.
On black caddies, the words of the previous chairman are damming and odd to think it still present as an issue in the 80s. One poster said the caddies complained when rules changed so that's a sign perhaps it wasn't a clear cut thing - if you're limited to certain jobs by discrimination and someone takes away the better paying element then you would be annoyed. Doesn't mean the discrimination is right to begin with, only that there was potentially an argument for using the club caddies if it were a diverse group by choice to begin with.
On F1 cars, how can you be upset (which tone suggests) around a car changing livery. It happens often as with helmets, and just a way for an employer to support an employee, raise awareness of a global movement and in this world it's probably good for the brand. They're not saying that solves the issue, or that silver cars were the issue to begin with, just keeping the discussion in the spotlight for a little longer rather than trivialising it. Agree it will only be useful if they take action to support change but it's something they can easily do now so why be concerned about it. I also think it looks quite sharp as a livery.
On Augusta itself, is a rule change enough to say an organisation doesn't have race issues when it's built on the back of them as some have suggested here. Yes they've changed it now, but the horse has bolted so it's arguably no more than a token effort and hasn't actually changed anything. You've got a club in a fairly poor district, in a state where 65% of population is black, yet you've got a rich, predominantly white male club in the middle of it. Doesn't seem quite right. Now the answer probably isn't to admit members to become more diverse because of the wealth has given it a different divide, but perhaps more could be done by them to grow the game in the community. I don't see a lot of press articles on this (perhaps it happens?) although I do congratulate them on the Women's event and the junior drive, pitch and putt tournament and I believe donations for Covid support and others into the community. A membership with that wealth and that history (i appreciate not current members who are likely to be more open) probably need to do a lot more if they are continuing to be one of our leading weeks in golf for the world to see so that it's unequivocal for reporters looking for a story that golf is open to all.
Anecdotes about general improvement over the decades - yes it has improved, I'm white so don't know but I expect there are less obvious discrimination (e.g. offensive words said out loud), but I would still suggest that statistics still show minority groups over represented in areas such as poverty, education and crime. If things were equal and had improved to make these discussions go away then that shouldn't be the case unless you think those are genetic issues.
So yes, name changes and statues being pulled down probably seem pointless, but if it helps the bigger picture or gets people engaged, then I'm personally not going to be offended about having the conversation on it. After all, it's just a name as some say.
sunshine
Well-known member
That's ok as long as they invite me. I think I could handle the course, just not sure I could cope with the a
Well said. The way that some of the posters have trivialised this discussion shows there is a clear race issue among members of this forum. I'm not calling anyone racist, just uninformed. Sadly a few conforming to the worst golfer stereotypes.
PhilTheFragger
Provider of Entertainment for the Golfing Gods 🙄
I disagree strongly, the discussion has been trivialised initially by some attention seeker looking for their 5 minutes of fame by trying to find a link between The Masters as it is now and BLM, it is a non issue
If you spout a ridiculous premise, then you will attract equally ridiculous and sarcastic responses
Put up a reasoned argument on a sensible subject and people will look at it and say yes that needs to change.
D
Deleted member 18588
Guest
Surely those that are uninformed about this particular issue are those who have made wild assumptions over the naming of this event and similarly about the African American community being offended by that name.
None of us are going to be better informed on these issues by posts on a golf forum made by white people.
Mandofred
Well-known member
I've never liked much of anything about the Masters. If someone offered me tickets to it I wouldn't use them. The golf course is amazing, but everything else about the place just bothers me. The name argument is just people looking for something to get mad about.
oxymoron
Club Champion
Firstly i dont think you can possibly say the first bit in bold it is too much of a generalization and unfair to the forum members . If i say i like Ping shirts does it mean everyone here likes them ? Wild assumptions are products of uneducated guesses as you state later , that serves no one , indeed it looks like you have made a very wild and sweeping assertion in the line above and i think you need to take a moment before you accuse all and sundry of having racist issues.
sunshine
Well-known member
I'm not making sweeping generalisations. I don't believe that all members have a race issue - and I didn't type this. But I think some do... on reflection I should have been more explicit when typing the sentence. I believe that some members do not understand the issue, based on the posts on this thread, I'd hope it's a minority but I can't possibly quantify how many.
PhilTheFragger
Provider of Entertainment for the Golfing Gods 🙄
How can you possibly have formulated that based on the posts on this thread?
If you ask a stupid question, you’ll get stupid answers, that’s what you have
sunshine
Well-known member
I disagree strongly. I believe there are people who genuinely believe the name the Masters has a link to slavery and white supremacy. Given the history of the club, the tournament and the area, I can understand why people would jump to that conclusion. Even though it's not correct
I explained why I believed this in a post on this thread yesterday. I thought that was a reasoned argument, but maybe not.
It sounds ridiculous to you and me, but we are fans of golf. To an outsider it might not be obvious. At least he's started a conversation which hopefully all sides will learn from.
