Blm-Renaming the masters

[clubchamp98]

I disagree strongly. I believe there are people who genuinely believe the name the Masters has a link to slavery and white supremacy. Given the history of the club, the tournament and the area, I can understand why people would jump to that conclusion. Even though it's not correct

I explained why I believed this in a post on this thread yesterday. I thought that was a reasoned argument, but maybe not.

It sounds ridiculous to you and me, but we are fans of golf. To an outsider it might not be obvious. At least he's started a conversation which hopefully all sides will learn from.

The “it’s not correct” part is the problem!
People can say anything is racist ,but they need to back it up.
Arguing against an untruth dosnt make you racist as has been argued here.
Penny Lane in Liverpool had the street signs vandalised without a shred of evidence it was named after a slave trader.
Just because someone on Twitter said it was.
This sort of action will make things worse as it does trivialise the BLM message.

 

[DanFST]

Bobby Jones and Clifford Roberts, the founders of the event, originally named the tournament, The Augusta National Invitational Tournament. When Roberts proposed the name, The Masters, Jones objected, believing the name was too presumptuous. However, five years later, Jones relented and the name was officially changed"

I think that if someone is looking at The Masters and thinking there is something wrong with the name, is seeing a problem that does not exist

That's the thing, Roberts was a racist. Is it not out of the realms of possibility that was the motive behind the importance of calling it The Masters? Especially when you look at events subsequently.

Eric Anders Lang - Race

That video makes me sad, anything (within the law) that stops stuff like this and keeps the conversation going is a good thing.

 

[Lazkir]

I disagree strongly. I believe there are people who genuinely believe the name the Masters has a link to slavery and white supremacy. Given the history of the club, the tournament and the area, I can understand why people would jump to that conclusion. Even though it's not correct

I explained why I believed this in a post on this thread yesterday. I thought that was a reasoned argument, but maybe not.

It sounds ridiculous to you and me, but we are fans of golf. To an outsider it might not be obvious. At least he's started a conversation which hopefully all sides will learn from.

So you now acknowledge that the original premise is based on a falsehood.
Surely you can understand that most people on here were ridiculing the daft premise and not the real issue of racism?

 

[Lazkir]

That's the thing, Roberts was a racist. Is it not out of the realms of possibility that was the motive behind the importance of calling it The Masters? Especially when you look at events subsequently.

Eric Anders Lang - Race

That video makes me sad, anything (within the law) that stops stuff like this and keeps the conversation going is a good thing.

Surely that's just whataboutery?
Same as the Penny Lane thing.
Lets try and stick to known facts rather than uninformed assumptions and I think we'd all get a consensus.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

This sort of action will make things worse as it does trivialise the BLM message.

Like many things these days, people jump on a bandwagon and it becomes a mouthpiece for every issue that is wrong with the world.
I have lost a lot of empathy for the whole BLM thing because like you say, it has become trivialised and it's supporters have done themselves no favours with all the reported incidents in the media.

Sure, there are many things that need to be changed but there are just as many things that don't need to be changed but just because one person flags it up doesn't mean it is an issue. Until there is enough support it is only an opinion.

As an aside, I have watched a lot of Masters re-runs on Youtube and seen big numbers of black people in the crowds so those guys don't appear to have an issue with it.

 

[clubchamp98]

Like many things these days, people jump on a bandwagon and it becomes a mouthpiece for every issue that is wrong with the world.
I have lost a lot of empathy for the whole BLM thing because like you say, it has become trivialised and it's supporters have done themselves no favours with all the reported incidents in the media.

Sure, there are many things that need to be changed but there are just as many things that don't need to be changed but just because one person flags it up doesn't mean it is an issue. Until there is enough support it is only an opinion.

As an aside, I have watched a lot of Masters re-runs on Youtube and seen big numbers of black people in the crowds so those guys don't appear to have an issue with it.

I agree , but for me the main thing is , if you are going to flag something up at least make sure it’s true and you have the proof.
That way you will get a reasonable chance of change.

 

[Sports_Fanatic]

Like many things these days, people jump on a bandwagon and it becomes a mouthpiece for every issue that is wrong with the world.
I have lost a lot of empathy for the whole BLM thing because like you say, it has become trivialised and it's supporters have done themselves no favours with all the reported incidents in the media.

Sure, there are many things that need to be changed but there are just as many things that don't need to be changed but just because one person flags it up doesn't mean it is an issue. Until there is enough support it is only an opinion.

As an aside, I have watched a lot of Masters re-runs on Youtube and seen big numbers of black people in the crowds so those guys don't appear to have an issue with it.

I would personally suggest that these bits are often more inflammatory pieces written by the media rather than the focus of BLM and other groups who have continued protesting peacefully in large numbers in the states with very little support. That seems still focused on police brutality, which potentially is also a wider issue on US police training and probably impact of gun laws too personally, and the inequality in the US in particular.

Saying that, i would be very frustrated for example in the case of Bristol and Edward Colston where there is clearly a direct link with the slave trade. Petitions, peaceful protests and approaches to the council have all fallen on deaf ears which date back over the last 4 years and beyond with articles in papers saying how Bristol hasn't reconciled their past. If it took that long just to remove a statue (which they potentially wouldn't if it hadn't been done for them) then if i was in a minority i wouldn't be hopeful of my chances of getting real change on discrimination - a lot of which I'm sure is subconscious bias.

So I can understand your frustration with it trivialising things, but a) I don't believe that's the majority and b) dismissing it completely or not engaging on the more important conversations because of it just ignores the issues.

 

[Sports_Fanatic]

That's the thing, Roberts was a racist. Is it not out of the realms of possibility that was the motive behind the importance of calling it The Masters? Especially when you look at events subsequently.

Eric Anders Lang - Race

That video makes me sad, anything (within the law) that stops stuff like this and keeps the conversation going is a good thing.

I know it's only a 7 min You Tube video but found it interesting and surely we need more public courses in the states being promoted given that private clubs seem exclusive there unlike the UK model predominantly. Quite like the NLU strapped series for this to give a different spin on golf courses over there.

Kid needs to work on his putting through although the shaft looks driver length for his height!

 

[Mandofred]

I know it's only a 7 min You Tube video but found it interesting and surely we need more public courses in the states being promoted given that private clubs seem exclusive there unlike the UK model predominantly.

Most courses in the US are public courses. In the area I grew up in, there was only one private course within 50 miles? Not the same everywhere of course. Last time I looked the stats up there were a LOT more private courses than I thought there would be. Private courses in the US are definitely considered more "special" than here in the UK......but maybe not by as much as you think. Ask the general population here in the UK what they think about a "members" golf club......likely you will end up with it being considered a place for elitists.

 

[DanFST]

Surely that's just whataboutery?
Same as the Penny Lane thing.
Lets try and stick to known facts rather than uninformed assumptions and I think we'd all get a consensus.

There are no facts, just an ambiguous line from a known racist, that's the issue . We aren't privvy to the conversations that occurred when the name changed from the Invitational.

FWIW: I think the name is fine, looking at the membership, you can't just be rich, you need to be incredibly powerful and a "master" of the US in your field. Not racism in this case, just sheer arrogance. However if i had a chip on my shoulder, I could see why some "may" want it changed.

Here's a young Tiger speaking about it. - do you not find that sad?

 

[Deleted member 18588]

There are no facts, just an ambiguous line from a known racist, that's the issue . We aren't privvy to the conversations that occurred when the name changed from the Invitational.

FWIW: I think the name is fine, looking at the membership, you can't just be rich, you need to be incredibly powerful and a "master" of the US in your field. Not racism in this case, just sheer arrogance. However if i had a chip on my shoulder, I could see why some "may" want it changed.

Here's a young Tiger speaking about it. - do you not find that sad?

The club is called Augusta National Golf Club, not The Masters so the latter is in no way intended to be reflective of the membership.

 

[Papas1982]

There are no facts, just an ambiguous line from a known racist, that's the issue . We aren't privvy to the conversations that occurred when the name changed from the Invitational.

FWIW: I think the name is fine, looking at the membership, you can't just be rich, you need to be incredibly powerful and a "master" of the US in your field. Not racism in this case, just sheer arrogance. However if i had a chip on my shoulder, I could see why some "may" want it changed.

Here's a young Tiger speaking about it. - do you not find that sad?

He wanted it called the masters from the start and every article i can find said others argued about the arrogance it could be linked to.

Yes he was racist, but claiming it was the reason for the naming is a stretch at best. You can't change everything just because it offends someone. If it was openly offensive then i would agree, but it quite clearly isn't.

 

[sunshine]

So you now acknowledge that the original premise is based on a falsehood.
Surely you can understand that most people on here were ridiculing the daft premise and not the real issue of racism?

Oh wow, you're really fixating on avoiding the underlying issue. I haven't changed my stance on the use of the word Masters, go back and read my posts, but I think we've moved on to a wider conversation on racism at the Masters / Augusta.

This is a golf forum so people come on here to talk to others who look and think like them. I get that. Sometimes it is helpful to listen to others who think and look differently to you, to educate yourself about structural racism, to understand why someone with a chip on their shoulder might believe the Masters is an insult to black people.

 

[sunshine]

How can you possibly have formulated that based on the posts on this thread?

If you ask a stupid question, you’ll get stupid answers, that’s what you have

What I am seeing on this thread is a number of posters looking to avoid hard questions, trivialising the issue creates the impression that they are denying that racism is a problem.

What I've seen is the use of very dismissive language, from you in particular. Because you don't agree with the comments they are "stupid" and "ridiculous", because this keeps you comfortable. There is little recognition that there may be an underlying issue, because this is uncomfortable.

The word privilege has been used in the BLM movement. Being able to ignore racism is a privilege, and it is something that many people have never had to understand.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

What I am seeing on this thread is a number of posters looking to avoid hard questions, trivialising the issue creates the impression that they are denying that racism is a problem.

What I've seen is the use of very dismissive language, from you in particular. Because you don't agree with the comments they are "stupid" and "ridiculous", because this keeps you comfortable. There is little recognition that there may be an underlying issue, because this is uncomfortable.

The word privilege has been used in the BLM movement. Being able to ignore racism is a privilege, and it is something that many people have never had to understand.

Can I ask what experience you have personally of racism?

 

[Papas1982]

I think people are getting too defensive about this specific example when it's really about symbolism and raising awareness.

In my field, software development, terms like master, slave, whitelist etc are in common usage and similar conversations are happening. In many cases there is a sinister, albeit unconscious etymology for the way the language has evolved. Crudely, white is good, black is bad. One major site, GitHub, is abandoning these terms. Replacing master, for example, with a term such as "primary" or "main". I'm in favour of that.

If people can approach the subject with an open mind I think there are valuable conversations to be had. I'm learning all the time at the moment.

I think in coding there's a valid point.

Because the word master is basically being used in the way that has it as all powerful over a slave.

BUT the word master itself has many meanings. I wouldnt remove it from bedroom either, but can accept some might as it means main and some will argue it implies the others are inferior.

My biggest issue is that eventually a line needs to be drawn or we spend all out time arguing over things trivial (like a golf course name) instead of the real issue.

 

[Lazkir]

Oh wow, you're really fixating on avoiding the underlying issue. I haven't changed my stance on the use of the word Masters, go back and read my posts, but I think we've moved on to a wider conversation on racism at the Masters / Augusta.

This is a golf forum so people come on here to talk to others who look and think like them. I get that. Sometimes it is helpful to listen to others who think and look differently to you, to educate yourself about structural racism, to understand why someone with a chip on their shoulder might believe the Masters is an insult to black people.

No, I'm not avoiding anything, if anything you're the one that's overly 'fixated' if you're seeing racism where it isn't.

Where do you stand on the Coco Pops issue? Is that a real and perceived thing or was it just someone trying to exploit the current situation and get some attention?

 

[Diamond]

Not being argumentative but i think i disagree with you on this point , i suspect the majority of BAME people will not give a rats arse who owns what as long as they get equal opportunities .
The clubs\corporations need to be owned\run by the best person for the job not someone defined by his\her skin colour or heritage .It would be great if that person was from the BAME community
but , again , in my opinion just putting someone in a position just because of their racial background does no service to the aims of movements like BLM and the wider BAME community .
True equality is giving all the same opportunities , education and living standards and this is what we should strive for .

Cutting my point down to the basic principle I will use a football club. If the owner is black he will in turn employ black staff which means the probability of a black manager is higher. I can’t name a black football club owner and I can only name 2-3 black managers (Curle, Campbell and Hughton). More black owners will mean more equal opportunity for black managers. That was my point.

 

[Papas1982]

Cutting my point down to the basic principle I will use a football club. If the owner is black he will in turn employ black staff which means the probability of a black manager is higher. I can’t name a black football club owner and I can only name 2-3 black managers (Curle, Campbell and Hughton). More black owners will mean more equal opportunity for black managers. That was my point.

No. That's not more equal opportunities.

Equal opportunities is having the same chance irrespective of employers colour. All yours above is doing, is compounding racism from a different ethnicity.

 

[Diamond]

Having not looked at this thread for a couple of days I could be here all evening replying to all the posts so I won’t.

There are a number of opinions that are all different so a good debate.

The issue at the heart of this is bigger than the name of a golf tournament. If the only problem was the name of the Masters tournament then the world would be a much better place to live.