Kellfire
Blackballed
You didn’t say it was impossible to compare; you said that modern players would beat the older generations which means you mentally compared them.
Best Player never to win a Major debate
- Thread starter Grant85
- Start date
D
Deleted Member 1156
Guest
I was comparing generation v generation not individual players.
Val
Ryder Cup Winner
I'd say Monty had the longest peak, 8 OOM wins after all.
Val
Ryder Cup Winner
Of course it's personal choice and opinion however I countered your thinking Westwood's peak came during Woods era which is potentially why he didn't get over the line with Monty coming top against the cream of the European Tour at the time but you confess to not knowing who they were. How can you then say it has to be Westwood because of who he was against?
Your thinking has a flaw in that regard.
D
Deleted member 18588
Guest
But who was "the cream of the European Tour " at that time?
Bearing in mind that the Major winning Europeans spent much of their time in the USA.
D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
My point is “the cream of Europe” at that time we’re splitting their time between both the states and Europe - Langer , Faldo , Olly , Seve etc where not playing week in week out in Europe and a lot of them in their twilight of their career. Even winning all those order of Merits he still couldn’t get to number one in the world which would suggest the points he was picking up were during comps with weaker fields
Was the competition that Monty had stronger than what Westwood faced when he hit number one ? And playing on both sides of the Atlantic - I don’t think so
I didn’t say it “has to be Westwood” but I don’t see Monty being “twice the player” Westwood was/is
Montys stats don’t wipe the floor with Westwood -
Westwood has 44 professsional wins
Monty has 54 - but 16 of them are Senior wins
Their Ryder Cup points tally are pretty close as well I think - Monty May just have the edge
As I said I think the difference between the two of them is very thin and certainly not as suggested a few times of twice the player and wipes the floor with Westwood
I’ll be honest, I don’t consider Westwood’s reign at the top as a deciding factor In the slightest. Imo since Woods first got to number 1, there have been very few times when someone has really been the best in the world.
The OWGR can be viewed and imo, a score of less than 9.5/10 being top is indicative of there being lots of eqaul players with one hving a tiny bit more consistency. Or having a better result in a bigger comp. The difference between them certainly wouldn’t lead me to favour one or another if i were betting on them.
There have been occassions when people have clearly separated themselves. Donald, Spieth, Rory (a few times), Koepka, DJ and Day come to mind, but i’m sure there are others. Rose falls into same category as Westy for me. It’s an Achievement of course, but not an indicator of really being the best.
The OWGR can be viewed and imo, a score of less than 9.5/10 being top is indicative of there being lots of eqaul players with one hving a tiny bit more consistency. Or having a better result in a bigger comp. The difference between them certainly wouldn’t lead me to favour one or another if i were betting on them.
There have been occassions when people have clearly separated themselves. Donald, Spieth, Rory (a few times), Koepka, DJ and Day come to mind, but i’m sure there are others. Rose falls into same category as Westy for me. It’s an Achievement of course, but not an indicator of really being the best.
ScienceBoy
Money List Winner
I agree there are pretty much two ways of deciding who is best.
1. How skilful they appear to be in their time.
2. How they compare to their competitors.
Both these make it hard to compare across generations, so one has to use a combination of both, which in turn makes it VERY subjective.
Val
Ryder Cup Winner
The cream of Europe weren't splitting their time, they played a handful of tournaments there in build up to majors, the same as Monty and Westwood did. The only one who really went exclusively to the states was Faldo.
As I agreed it will be personal opinion and my opinion is mine. Monty was twice the player Westwood was and remains the best player never to win a major.
Val
Ryder Cup Winner
They didn't tho, it's a myth
Monty for me, it’s unbelievable he never had one.
Grant85
Head Pro
Watched a bit of the 2006 US Open again earlier.
So Furyk had a short putt to get in ahead of everyone at +5. At the time Phil was at +3 playing 16.
Monty made an outrageous birdie on 17 to get to +4 just as Phil bogeyed 16, so they were both tied for the lead. Ogilvy +6.
So at the time of playing 18, Monty was co-leading and +4 was probably a playoff at worst, with Phil or Ogilvy behind him able to influence things. Ogilvy made a pretty outrageous birdie on 17 as well to get to +5.
I don't think having 2 players behind him changed anything, whether he would have taken a more conservative line if he'd known +4 would definitely win? He was on the right side of the fairway with a front right pin, so the line was always coming across the corner of the green. Only 138 yard shot. He said he took a club less as he thought adrenaline would mean he'd hit it further... Ultimately a poor decision, more than a poor swing. Then made 3 putts from the complete wrong side of the green... decent effort at bogey, just didn't go in.
Phil actually made a bigger horlicks of it, given he was in the final group and knew on 18 that a par wins and a bogey is a playoff with a guy he beats most times. Also didn't realise at the time Phil had won the 2 previous majors (05 PGA and 06 Masters) and was going for the MickelSLAM!
So Furyk had a short putt to get in ahead of everyone at +5. At the time Phil was at +3 playing 16.
Monty made an outrageous birdie on 17 to get to +4 just as Phil bogeyed 16, so they were both tied for the lead. Ogilvy +6.
So at the time of playing 18, Monty was co-leading and +4 was probably a playoff at worst, with Phil or Ogilvy behind him able to influence things. Ogilvy made a pretty outrageous birdie on 17 as well to get to +5.
I don't think having 2 players behind him changed anything, whether he would have taken a more conservative line if he'd known +4 would definitely win? He was on the right side of the fairway with a front right pin, so the line was always coming across the corner of the green. Only 138 yard shot. He said he took a club less as he thought adrenaline would mean he'd hit it further... Ultimately a poor decision, more than a poor swing. Then made 3 putts from the complete wrong side of the green... decent effort at bogey, just didn't go in.
Phil actually made a bigger horlicks of it, given he was in the final group and knew on 18 that a par wins and a bogey is a playoff with a guy he beats most times. Also didn't realise at the time Phil had won the 2 previous majors (05 PGA and 06 Masters) and was going for the MickelSLAM!
Val
Ryder Cup Winner
The worst 18th hole I've seen since VdV at Carnoustie
Grant85
Head Pro
Absolutely.
Also very very sad to see the 18th at Carnoustie now playing so benign. In 2018 it seemed to be Driver / mid iron and no one (in contention at least) was close to being in the burn or being in serious trouble off the tee. Justin Rose birdied it all 4 days!
We need more absolute carnage 18th holes in championship golf.
howbow88
Hacker
Wrong.
Monty won 6, halved 2, lost 0. If anyone betters that record then fair enough, but I doubt that they will to be honest.
Val
Ryder Cup Winner
Baking hot all week and not a breath of wind tho
Hoganman1
Well-known member
I vote for Monty too. Westwood still has a chance, albeit a very slim one; as do Kuchar, Casey and Donald. Also I think Rickie and Hideki will eventually get it done. My guess is Rahm and Fleetwood will win one sooner than later too.
HankMarvin
Tour Rookie
Sad tho I say it, Monty for sure great player and dominated European golf for more years than anyone else ever will again.
Solidthreeputt
New member
Agree with this, but the reason is simply the evolution of the sport. Anyone who dominates Europe will quickly move to America for at least half their schedule. Hard to blame them when you look at the financial disparity between the tours. The tour reschedule is a step in the right direction for the European Tour but it will probably always play second fiddle due to the product the PGA Tour has built around Tiger’s career.
HankMarvin
Tour Rookie
Money wasnt the same back in the day when Monty dominated the European tour compared to what it is now. I can understand why players make the move now as they are only interested in chasing the cash but there is still some great talent on the ET at the moment.
