Ball deemed 'lost' situation

[Maninblack4612]

Done it myself plenty times. Walked to the vicinity of my first ball - had a very quick and cursory look at deep horrible gorse and said Nah! not going to bother. And walked to my provisional in the middle of the fairway. And that's all you need to do.

Which is why I think you should be able to play provisional for a ball which may be lost OR unplayable.

 

[doublebogey7]

Which is why I think you should be able to play provisional for a ball which may be lost OR unplayable.

So you have hit a provisional after hitting your 1st ball towards a bush, you find your 1st ball in the bush but it is impossible to play it so you deem it unplayable. Now you must play your 3rd shot with the provisional, is that what you are suggesting?

 

[Maninblack4612]

So you have hit a provisional after hitting your 1st ball towards a bush, you find your 1st ball in the bush but it is impossible to play it so you deem it unplayable. Now you must play your 3rd shot with the provisional, is that what you are suggesting?

I'm suggesting that this is what the rule should, but doesn't currently, allow.

 

[doublebogey7]

I'm suggesting that this is what the rule should, but doesn't currently, allow.

Then why would anyone who fears their ball may be lost take a provisional and thus lose 2 options otherwise open to them if they were to find their ball in an unplayable position.

 

[Maninblack4612]

Then why would anyone who fears their ball may be lost take a provisional and thus lose 2 options otherwise open to them if they were to find their ball in an unplayable position.

I don't think you've understood.

 

[doublebogey7]

I don't think you've understood.

I think I have and it's clearly flawed as explained, but if I am wrong then please help me.

 

[Maninblack4612]

Then why would anyone who fears their ball may be lost take a provisional and thus lose 2 options otherwise open to them if they were to find their ball in an unplayable position.

You wouldn't lose two options. If the ball was found to be unplayable you could (1) drop within 2 club lengths under penalty, (2) take the ball back as far as you wanted, in line with the hole or (3) replay the shot from where you played the previous ONE. EXCEPT that, with option 3, you'd already have done it by playing a provisional. This gives you all the same options as you have under the current rule.

 

[doublebogey7]

You wouldn't lose two options. If the ball was found to be unplayable you could (1) drop within 2 club lengths under penalty, (2) take the ball back as far as you wanted, in line with the hole or (3) replay the shot from where you played the previous ONE. EXCEPT that, with option 3, you'd already have done it by playing a provisional. This gives you all the same options as you have under the current rule.

So now you've changed your mind. Clearly this does not give you the same options as now you know the result of "stroke & distance" which will clearly influence your next move. Not a good rule change for me.

 

[Maninblack4612]

So now you've changed your mind. Clearly this does not give you the same options as now you know the result of "stroke & distance" which will clearly influence your next move. Not a good rule change for me.

No I haven't changed my mind! As I have already said it puts you in the same position as you are in when you see where your ball is likely to be & decide not to search in case you find it.

 

[Maninblack4612]

That would be terrible. It would allow you to play a provisional and then, if both are found, choose whether to play the original or the provisional.

Which is what you do when you decide not to look for the first ball when you know the provisional is in the middle of the fairway. What's the difference between knowing the ball is unplayable whether you find it or not?

 

[doublebogey7]

Which is what you do when you decide not to look for the first ball when you know the provisional is in the middle of the fairway. What's the difference between knowing the ball is unplayable whether you find it or not?

You cant know, though you could be virtually certain, it is unplayable if you don't find it. If you choose not to look then you are taking a risk that it could be playable or that two club lengths/back on line would be more favourable than the provisional.

 

[Maninblack4612]

You get to decide whether the ball is unplayable or not regardless of where it is found.

I'm aware of that. That's not the point I was making. For the last time - by not looking for the ball when you know it will be unplayable you gain an advantage which you wouldn't have, had you found it, i.e. you get to play your provisional, which you know is in the middle of the fairway. In effect, you have played a provisional for a ball which was unplayable. Can't make it simpler than that.

 

[Orikoru]

The harsh fact is that if Player A had known the rules better - then, in the scenario he found himself in, he would immediately have gone to somewhere in the vicinity of where his ball is likely to be sitting and after a quick 1s 'non-look' walked away having started his 'search'. His opponent then has 2min 59s to continue his search - if that's his want.

Do you even have to be near where you think the ball is? If I walk to my provisional that's 30 yards away from the original, but I stare back at the forest where the original is for a couple of seconds, I could argue I've started my search even then.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

Do you even have to be near where you think the ball is? If I walk to my provisional that's 30 yards away from the original, but I stare back at the forest where the original is for a couple of seconds, I could argue I've started my search even then.

No you haven’t. You have to be in the suspected area of your ball.

 

[Maninblack4612]

Well, yes, sort of. But it’s an over simplification. What you proposed would allow someone to hit a provisional, find the first and weigh up whether playing four from a good provisional might be better than playing two from a bad original.

Whereas someone choosing not to look has not found the original so they do not have the opportunity to make that decision. Arguably they would only do that if the area it went was so awful the ball would literally be physically unplayable.

I’m not saying the current situation is right, just that your proposal would make things worse.

We'll agree to differ. Glad I got my point across.

 

[Orikoru]

No you haven’t. You have to be in the suspected area of your ball.

How close? What's the radius? Is it stated in the rules or are you just assuming? What if I look at the area with my rangefinder so I can see it better?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

On this subject. On my evening knock with a couple of mates last night I had to explain about provisionals (which they knew about of course - but not some of the more important things round provisionals) , new ball in play, and there being no such thing as declaring a ball lost. One is relatively new to the game ( 3yrs+?) but the other has been playing for over ten yrs. And yet the misconceptions and misunderstandings they held were numerous...and I wonder about all the others they play with...

 

[MrC]

I was at the women’s British open last year when one tee shot went in deep. Player hit second into middle of fairway. As a few of us went looking for first the marshal stopped us and was saying there is no way they will want you to find it. Sure enough she walks up and asks where it went and we all point...she then says thanks and promptly goes to the second ball to play....

Rules are rules and can be used to your advantage and I didn’t see any of her playing partners say anything about it

 

[Ethan]

Player has the right not to look, but opponent has the right to try to find it before clock runs out or player hits their provo from nearer the hole and therefore into play.

 

[rulefan]

Player has the right not to look, but opponent has the right to try to find it before clock runs out or player hits their provo from nearer the hole and therefore into play.

I'm surprised that no one seems to have mentioned that in the previous 112 posts