Ball deemed 'lost' situation

[rulefan]

It's 3 minutes from the time you (or your caddie) start to search.

 

[mikseymono]

It's a dick move but yeah if they find your ball I guess you have to play it. I have two questions though...

1. Usually if you're looking for your own ball you have 3 minutes from the time when you start your search, right? So if you're not looking for it and someone else is do they have infinite time to find it because you haven't started searching? Or do they have 3 minutes in this situation?

2. In order to stop them finding your first ball, can you like sprint to your ball and play it as soon as possible? So once you've hit the other ball again that's now completely in play? Or could they still find your original ball after you've hit your 4th shot (2nd shot with the provisional ball)? (Edit: I think Kaz already answered this above actually, just seen it.)

1- I imagine three minutes
2 - I think if you say you are not going to look for it and they still insist...I think it is reasonable to run up to your provisional and hit that. Unfortunately this will leave a bitter taste in the mouth and set the bar for further rounds, which in my case will be many over the years.

It is a dick move....and I always try not to rise to it....however, it is difficult sometimes though........

M

 

[rulefan]

As the player you are as entitled not to search and go and play the provisional as any other player is entitled to search for your ball. There is no dishonour either way. The Rules permit both.
In strokeplay IMO and experience it is courtesy to let the player decide.
That is why referees usually do not search unless the player asks (and then most referees will not search in desperately dire places). Further we will ask spectators not to search unless the player has indicated he wants them to help.
In matchplay, referees do not interfere between a player and his opponent.

 

[rulie]

In matchplay, referees do not interfere between a player and his opponent.
This is applicable only when the referee is not assigned to the match. If he or she is assigned to the match they must apply all the Rule breaches that they observe or are reported to them.

 

[Orikoru]

It's 3 minutes from the time you (or your caddie) start to search.

That doesn't answer my question (if it was meant to). If you aren't looking for it then your search never starts. So it's 3 minutes from when the opponent starts searching??

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

That doesn't answer my question (if it was meant to). If you aren't looking for it then your search never starts. So it's 3 minutes from when the opponent starts searching??

rulefan will clarify I am sure - however the rule about searching for a ball and time limit is a stated - it's all about the time the player and/or his caddie can look. From that I take that any individual, including any opponent, not player or caddie can look for the ball for as long as they want. If the player hits his provisional from a position past where the original ball is likely to lie before a ball is found then he needn't go to identify it - his provisional is now the ball in play. If the ball found is past where the provisional is played from then the player has to go to identify it as his or not, and the clock starts.

 

[Orikoru]

rulefan will clarify I am sure - however the rule about searching for a ball and time limit is a stated - it's all about the time the player and/or his caddie can look. From that I take that any individual, including any opponent, not player or caddie can look for the ball for as long as they want. If the player hits his provisional from a position past where the original ball is likely to lie before a ball is found then he needn't go to identify it - his provisional is now the ball in play. If the ball found is past where the provisional is played from then the player has to go to identify it as his or not, and the clock starts.

That can't be true because then Tom playing in the monthly Stableford with his two mates Dick & Harry can send them two to go and look for his potentially lost ball, he stays well out of it and they have infinite time to find it for him? Would be a massive loophole.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

That can't be true because then Tom playing in the monthly Stableford with his two mates Dick & Harry can send them two to go and look for his potentially lost ball, he stays well out of it and they have infinite time to find it for him? Would be a massive loophole.

Indeed - though Dick and Harry would appear to be like spectators hunting for a players ball - and in any case the player still has to play without undue delay...so can't hang around waiting for his mates to get to where his ball is and then wait until they have had a good look before he progresses.

 

[Swango1980]

Indeed - though Dick and Harry would appear to be like spectators hunting for a players ball - and in any case the player still has to play without undue delay...so can't hang around waiting for his mates to get to where his ball is and then wait until they have had a good look before he progresses.

There is no loophole. A player may not delay the start of search to gain an advantage, this is within the definition of Lost Ball,
Interpretations. The words:

The three-minute search time for a ball starts when the player or his or her caddie (or the player's partner or partner's caddie) starts to search for it. The player may not delay the start of the search in order to gain an advantage by allowing other people to search on his or her behalf.

PS My reply was more of a response to Orikoru, and elaborating on yours

 

[Crazyface]

Had a situation a few years ago in a higher profile comp that had spectators out watching. PP hit it into the bundai and then a great provisional so decided just to ignore the first one. Even though we were clearly not looking an old bloke came running over to say he found it. Helpfully, he'd picked it up and brought it over!

She wisnae happy!

You can just deny that it is your ball. I was told a story where this happened, Pro match play an' all.

 

[Italian outcast]

can i ask a perhaps stupid question - why play a provisional if there was no intention to look for the first ball?

 

[rulefan]

In matchplay, referees do not interfere between a player and his opponent.
This is applicable only when the referee is not assigned to the match. If he or she is assigned to the match they must apply all the Rule breaches that they observe or are reported to them.

I was talking within the context of the thread (ie searching and not searching) not about a breach of the rules.

 

[rulefan]

That doesn't answer my question (if it was meant to). If you aren't looking for it then your search never starts. So it's 3 minutes from when the opponent starts searching??

No. The opponent is irrelevant, which is why I only mentioned the player and his caddie. It is the time that they take that matters. No one else.

 

[rulefan]

That can't be true because then Tom playing in the monthly Stableford with his two mates Dick & Harry can send them two to go and look for his potentially lost ball, he stays well out of it and they have infinite time to find it for him? Would be a massive loophole.

It isn't because Tom would be penalised under 5.6a.

 

[mikseymono]

can i ask a perhaps stupid question - why play a provisional if there was no intention to look for the first ball?

This is a good point...and one I shall adopt in the future. On a ball that goes in the Wild Willy West, on this hole, where even if you found it you would be looking to hit three miracle shots to get it to the corner....and that's without any penalty shots.
M

 

[rulefan]

can i ask a perhaps stupid question - why play a provisional if there was no intention to look for the first ball?

It may be that the player doesn't decide not to search until he gets nearer the area and realises he's not going to be able to play it even if he did find it.
A la Mickelson a few years ago when he hit his ball into a rocky canyon and a diligent marshall 'found' it for him.
I saw a similar situation a few years ago at Hoylake. A player hooked his approach to the green into the rather nasty dunes next to the OOB. He played a provisional onto the green. Fortunately the spotter didn't actually search but waited til the player got near and indicated the general area. The player chose to play his provisional. Later the spotter found the ball deep in the sand adjacent to an OB post.

 

[Italian outcast]

in a comp last year - par 3 I hit one right into the bongo
Played a provisional - hit it to 18 inches
but...'we' found the 1st - made a 7 with that one

 

[Orikoru]

No. The opponent is irrelevant, which is why I only mentioned the player and his caddie. It is the time that they take that matters. No one else.

So if you don't want to search for your ball, but you can't take your next shot with the provisional because there's a slow group in front, your opponent could find your first ball after 10 minutes and you have to play it?? That's ridiculous!

 

[rulefan]

So if you don't want to search for your ball, but you can't take your next shot with the provisional because there's a slow group in front, your opponent could find your first ball after 10 minutes and you have to play it?? That's ridiculous!

Look for 10 seconds, walk away and wait for the balance of 3 minutes

But it would be bad form and do little for his reputation for your opponent to search after you have asked him not to.

But what would you propose?

 

[Imurg]

So if you don't want to search for your ball, but you can't take your next shot with the provisional because there's a slow group in front, your opponent could find your first ball after 10 minutes and you have to play it?? That's ridiculous!

Surely if your oppo is looking for more than 3 minutes he's discontinued play and should be getting a penalty.?...