Ball deemed 'lost' situation

[rulefan]

Surely if your oppo is looking for more than 3 minutes he's discontinued play and should be getting a penalty.?...

I think the point was that in effect there is an enforced stoppage.

 

[Orikoru]

Look for 10 seconds, walk away and wait for the balance of 3 minutes

But it would be bad form and do little for his reputation for your opponent to search after you have asked him not to.

But what would you propose?

Surely it would be relatively simple to say in match play if anyone starts the search it starts the 3 minutes? Or specifically when the player opts not to search. However they normally word these things. It just seems wrong at the minute.

I think normally when I'm not going to look for my ball I still do what you said at the top there - casually glance over in some false pretence that I'm considering it. So in effect that starts the 3 minutes I guess.

 

[Slab]

Just going back to the original post (and while I can’t imagine looking for someone’s ball if they indicated they weren’t going to look for their own ball) its worth noting the player that did look may believe he is not just looking for himself, he may believe he is looking for the field & the terrain around the likely location of the ball invited a cursory glance around to protect that field (& it may not be the absolute twonk move he's being credited with)

However often it comes down to a shootout between these two to decide the winner, it wasn’t matchplay & other players who may have paid entry fee are involved

 

[mikseymono]

The cursory glance would be OK is suppose...but my ball was in the deep thick stuff....probably a good 10m in.....one bounce off the back of the bunker and it went racing in. You would have to stand on it to find it. The fairway gently curves right until it hits the corner then 90 degrees to the left and my ball was at the extreme left of the fairway someways back form the corner a good 80 from the middle of the fairway. Proper doo doo.
Next time I'm just going to play my second ball but NOT as a provisional.
M

 

[Bunkermagnet]

The cursory glance would be OK is suppose...but my ball was in the deep thick stuff....probably a good 10m in.....one bounce off the back of the bunker and it went racing in. You would have to stand on it to find it. The fairway gently curves right until it hits the corner then 90 degrees to the left and my ball was at the extreme left of the fairway someways back form the corner a good 80 from the middle of the fairway. Proper doo doo.
Next time I'm just going to play my second ball but NOT as a provisional.
M

Why would you say you were playing a provisional if you knew the ground conditions at that point?
If I know the ground conditions on where my ball may have gone, I don’t bother with the word “provisional” and just play 3 off the tee.

 

[mikseymono]

I know......it was mainly due to the fact that my brand new Pro V1 was only a few holes old and I was more concerned about that!
Next time I'll just play 3 off the tee....i.e. no provisional.... and then have a look for my ball.
M

 

[Swango1980]

Just going back to the original post (and while I can’t imagine looking for someone’s ball if they indicated they weren’t going to look for their own ball) its worth noting the player that did look may believe he is not just looking for himself, he may believe he is looking for the field & the terrain around the likely location of the ball invited a cursory glance around to protect that field (& it may not be the absolute twonk move he's being credited with)

However often it comes down to a shootout between these two to decide the winner, it wasn’t matchplay & other players who may have paid entry fee are involved

I wouldn't see it as protecting the field. The player has a right to NOT play a provisional, and immediately take 3 off the tee. They also have a right to play a provisional and then NOT search for the first. This is not cheating in a sense, in which the field must be protected from.

 

[Maninblack4612]

In a way, not looking for your ball for 3 minutes is against the spirit of the game. The provisional ball is designed only save time & to put you in the position you would have been in if you'd looked unsuccessfully for 3 minutes then gone back & played 3 off the tee, not to give you the option of which ball to play. That's why you can't play a provisional for a ball that may be unplayable. There's a lot of difference between choosing to play your provisional when you know it's in the middle of the fairway & choosing not to look for the first one before you go back & hit another one, which could end up in the same place.

 

[Slab]

I wouldn't see it as protecting the field. The player has a right to NOT play a provisional, and immediately take 3 off the tee. They also have a right to play a provisional and then NOT search for the first. This is not cheating in a sense, in which the field must be protected from.

Absolutely and the player can use the distinct advantage we are all provided by the provisional ball process to change his mind as he walks down towards the likely area and not look because he reckons a nice short iron & he might just get away with a par (maybe only possible by the modicum of extra comfort of hitting a provisional rather than 3 off the tee) especially now that he knows it was such a peach of a shot (as described in this scenario)
i.e he’s allowed to choose to give up the possibility of finding the first, ignore it totally and play what is now his preferred ball... and not be called out for it, because the rules allow it & I'm sure we've all done it

But there's no rule stopping the other guy looking for it (but he will be called out for it)

I'm not saying I disagree, its completely accepted now as the norm. I'm just wondering; when the very first player decided to not look after hitting a provisional rather than 3offthetee I wonder what the others in that group thought about him?

 

[Swango1980]

In a way, not looking for your ball for 3 minutes is against the spirit of the game. The provisional ball is designed only save time & to put you in the position you would have been in if you'd looked unsuccessfully for 3 minutes then gone back & played 3 off the tee, not to give you the option of which ball to play. That's why you can't play a provisional for a ball that may be unplayable. There's a lot of difference between choosing to play your provisional when you know it's in the middle of the fairway & choosing not to look for the first one before you go back & hit another one, which could end up in the same place.

NOT looking for his first will save 3 minutes tho (plus the time to get there). If not searching for the original ball was "against the spirit of the game", why on earth do the rules simply not say a player MUST search for the original if they play a provisional? The fact they don't means they allow the player to take that option.

If I am playing a game and hit my original deep into the woods, I will often play a provisional. I might as well, because I have no idea where it will end up, might be worse than original, so it gives me the option of looking for my first, and I might get lucky in finding it. However, if I then smash my provisional down the middle, I may well decide I will not look for the first. That is my right within the rules, and not against the spirit of anything as far as I can tell. I am assuming the original will be in a terrible position, but I am ruling out the chance I may find the original in a more favourable position than expected, chip out, and hit my 3rd into a much better position than my provisional.

I can understand that the rules do not allow you to make that decision once the position of both the original and provisional are known (i.e. once the original is found), because then the player can make a decision by weighing up both positions in each individual case. So, as soon as the original ball is found by an opponent / fellow competitor / spectator, whether by accident or not, then it rules out the chance to play the provisional.

 

[rulefan]

Surely it would be relatively simple to say in match play if anyone starts the search it starts the 3 minutes? Or specifically when the player opts not to search. However they normally word these things. It just seems wrong at the minute.

I think normally when I'm not going to look for my ball I still do what you said at the top there - casually glance over in some false pretence that I'm considering it. So in effect that starts the 3 minutes I guess.

So the opponent happens to be well forward or is on a buggy and arrives at the possible area a minute or so before the player and starts a perfunctory search. The player then arrives a makes a serious search but now only has two minutes left. Good idea?

 

[Maninblack4612]

why on earth do the rules simply not say a player MUST search for the original if they play a provisional?

Perhaps the rules should say this.

I may well decide I will not look for the first.

This is the choice you shouldn't, in my opinion, have.

OK, it may not be against the spirit of the rule (I think it is) but it gives you a choice which the rule did not intend you to have, hence why you can't use a provisional for a ball that may be unplayable.

 

[rulefan]

it gives you a choice which the rule did not intend you to have,

Why do you think the RBs didn't intend you to have a choice? How do you infer that from the words in the rule?

 

[Wildboy370]

I may be wrong, but I thought the ruling was you had to declare the first ball lost before you hit the second? You can’t decide just because you smacked the second down the middle, if you declared the second ball provisional you have to go look for the first ball.

 

[rulefan]

I may be wrong, but I thought the ruling was you had to declare the first ball lost before you hit the second? You can’t decide just because you smacked the second down the middle, if you declared the second ball provisional you have to go look for the first ball.

You don't. You can abandon it and continue with the provisional (unless someone finds what they reckon is your ball, when you are obliged to identify it).

 

[Crazyface]

You don't. You can abandon it and continue with the provisional (unless someone finds what they reckon is your ball, when you are obliged to identify it).

And if it's in a nasty place, deny it's yours and walk on, it's what I've heard has happened.

 

[Swango1980]

And if it's in a nasty place, deny it's yours and walk on, it's what I've heard has happened.

Well, anyone could do that, just like they could kick the ball out of the rough when no one is looking

 

[TheJezster]

And if it's in a nasty place, deny it's yours and walk on, it's what I've heard has happened.

OK this is against the spirit of the game!!

What man in black said isn't in the slightest, but this is ?

 

[chrisd]

OK this is against the spirit of the game!!

What man in black said isn't in the slightest, but this is ?

A player is obliged to look at a ball found inside 3 minutes and identify whether it's his or not , if he lies and says it's not his that is not against "the spirit if the game" it's against the rules!

 

[TheJezster]

A player is obliged to look at a ball found inside 3 minutes and identify whether it's his or not , if he lies and says it's not his that is not against "the spirit if the game" it's against the rules!

Well, yes, obviously. I was being ironic..