Ball deemed 'lost' situation

[Ethan]

I'm surprised that no one seems to have mentioned that in the previous 112 posts

I am surprised you think I have read 112 posts.

 

[rulefan]

I am surprised you think I have read 112 posts.

You didn't need to. The OP was satisfied within the first 8.

 

[Italian outcast]

How close? What's the radius? Is it stated in the rules or are you just assuming? What if I look at the area with my rangefinder so I can see it better?

Just pop these on

 

[Colin L]

How close? What's the radius? Is it stated in the rules or are you just assuming? What if I look at the area with my rangefinder so I can see it better?

Why not check for yourself whether it is stated in the rules?
https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/pages/the-rules-of-golf

In case that sounded a bit grouchy, try starting with the meaning of "search". A search involves a thorough and careful looking for something in a particular place/area. Scanning an area from a distance with the naked eye (as we normally do after we have hit a shot) or with binoculars is cursory, not careful or thorough. You won't find search defined in the Rules. Like many other words used it is already clearly enough defined.

Area is important. You don't start searching an area until you reach it. As a referee, I can tell even from a distance when a ball search has started by the the way the searchers move, the way their heads are down looking intently at the ground, the way they systematically cover the ground and so on. Sometimes it is difficult to know if it is the owner of the ball or his caddie or his partner who has started a search - first on the scene can be a different player/caddie. But that's a different matter. There is a distinct change from how a person walks towards an area and what they do when they get there. Perhaps they drop their bag, park their trolley, say to their mates "I think it's in here" ..... all manner of clues that they have started looking carefully for their ball in the area they believe it to be.

To sum up. We know what the word search means and we can tell when we see it when one starts.

 

[clubchamp98]

Orikoru's question has still not been resolved...

A and B playing scratch singles, last out in a club county team semi final... Serious ? stuff...
Player A is walking up to and then waiting to play his provisional sitting in the middle of the 18th fairway. He is 1st to play but can't play until the green is clear, the group in front haven't even reached the green yet, let alone putted out.
Despite A not wanting his ball to be found, his matchplay opponent (who has had a nightmare on the hole and has played 2 already) is searching for A's ball and the situation actually allows B about 6 minutes without any undue delay.

This is within the rules, very conceivable, and is totally at odds with the player only being allowed 3 minutes.

Seems a bit bizarre.

I agree here and can’t really understand why your opponent is allowed to look if you deem it lost.
In nearly all other situations you are responsible for your own ball( unplayable etc).
You have taken the penalty.
So why can someone else affect your play of the hole?
It’s a situation that causes ill feeling ,I just don’t understand why it’s allowed!!

 

[Maninblack4612]

I agree here and can’t really understand why your opponent is allowed to look if you deem it lost.
In nearly all other situations you are responsible for your own ball( unplayable etc).
You have taken the penalty.
So why can someone else affect your play of the hole?
It’s a situation that causes ill feeling ,I just don’t understand why it’s allowed!!

Under the rules you are not allowed to "deem it lost". Perhaps you should be.

 

[Maninblack4612]

The next reply will be "you can by not declaring your provisonal is a provisional" ?

That doesn't help when you get to where your ball is & realise you want it to be lost.

 

[clubchamp98]

Under the rules you are not allowed to "deem it lost". Perhaps you should be.

Wrong terminology.
But can’t see how your opponent can look for as long as he can.
When you decide not to, just to worsen your score, that just sounds wrong imo.
Thought we were trying to speed things up.

If you go and look for 10 secs is he allowed to look for 3 mins if it’s his turn to play, and no hold up?

 

[Maninblack4612]

Wrong terminology.
But can’t see how your opponent can look for as long as he can.
When you decide not to, just to worsen your score, that just sounds wrong imo.
Thought we were trying to speed things up.

If you go and look for 10 secs is he allowed to look for 3 mins if it’s his turn to play, and no hold up?

correct terminology, just not in the rules.

"Can't see how" It's in the rules

"Is he allowed to look for 3 mins" Yes

 

[Maninblack4612]

In reality I can't remember a time when I found my original and couldn't get it in a better position than the provisional after 2 more shots (penalty drop included)[/QUOTE]

Really? Just the other week a fellow competitor hit his ball into the thick rough. 2 clubs length & as far back as would have been no good. Bad luck for him, someone found it. It took him 2 shots to get back on the fairway & he was still well behind where his provisional landed. He would have been better off going back to the tee but couldn't be bothered because it would have disrupted the game. A case for allowing a provisional to be used for an unplayable?

 

[Maninblack4612]

The provisional is just to save time if the original is lost.

In the words of Basil Fawlty "Specialist subject, the bleedin' obvious"

 

[Colin L]

"Is he allowed to look for 3 mins" Yes

No, he is not. If it is his turn to play and no hold up, it would be an unreasonable delay to search for his opponent's ball for any length of time. 1 stroke penalty for first breach. See Rule 5.6a.

Really? Just the other week a fellow competitor hit his ball into the thick rough. 2 clubs length & as far back as would have been no good. Bad luck for him, someone found it. It took him 2 shots to get back on the fairway & he was still well behind where his provisional landed. He would have been better off going back to the tee but couldn't be bothered because it would have disrupted the game. A case for allowing a provisional to be used for an unplayable?

A player's not being bothered to do something isn't much of a case for a rule allowing him not to be bothered.

 

[Orikoru]

Why not check for yourself whether it is stated in the rules?
https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/pages/the-rules-of-golf

In case that sounded a bit grouchy, try starting with the meaning of "search". A search involves a thorough and careful looking for something in a particular place/area. Scanning an area from a distance with the naked eye (as we normally do after we have hit a shot) or with binoculars is cursory, not careful or thorough. You won't find search defined in the Rules. Like many other words used it is already clearly enough defined.

Area is important. You don't start searching an area until you reach it. As a referee, I can tell even from a distance when a ball search has started by the the way the searchers move, the way their heads are down looking intently at the ground, the way they systematically cover the ground and so on. Sometimes it is difficult to know if it is the owner of the ball or his caddie or his partner who has started a search - first on the scene can be a different player/caddie. But that's a different matter. There is a distinct change from how a person walks towards an area and what they do when they get there. Perhaps they drop their bag, park their trolley, say to their mates "I think it's in here" ..... all manner of clues that they have started looking carefully for their ball in the area they believe it to be.

To sum up. We know what the word search means and we can tell when we see it when one starts.

By that logic, doing what others said earlier - walking over, having a quick glance and walking off - doesn't constitute a 'search' either.

 

[doublebogey7]

I think being simply able to declare s ball lost would result in more problems than it solves. For instance when and how would you communicate it, what happens when a spectator finds the ball before

In reality I can't remember a time when I found my original and couldn't get it in a better position than the provisional after 2 more shots (penalty drop included)

Really? Just the other week a fellow competitor hit his ball into the thick rough. 2 clubs length & as far back as would have been no good. Bad luck for him, someone found it. It took him 2 shots to get back on the fairway & he was still well behind where his provisional landed. He would have been better off going back to the tee but couldn't be bothered because it would have disrupted the game. A case for allowing a provisional to be used for an unplayable?[/QUOTE]
What if he had also hit his provisional into an unplayable lie?

 

[clubchamp98]

correct terminology, just not in the rules.

"Can't see how" It's in the rules

"Is he allowed to look for 3 mins" Yes

I know it’s in the rules but the debate is wether it should be imo no.
If I don’t want to look and take the penalty then nobody else should insist on looking.

 

[rulefan]

I'm aware of that. That's not the point I was making. For the last time - by not looking for the ball when you know it will be unplayable you gain an advantage which you wouldn't have, had you found it, i.e. you get to play your provisional, which you know is in the middle of the fairway. In effect, you have played a provisional for a ball which was unplayable. Can't make it simpler than that.

But is has cost you a stroke.

 

[Maninblack4612]

But is has cost you a stroke.

Of course it has, BUT, when deciding which of the 3 options to take, you have the comfort of knowing where your "back to where you played your last shot" is going to be. Better than going back, hitting it into the same place as the first one & wishing you'd looked for the first one & found it.