Ball deemed 'lost' situation

[Wildboy370]

18.3c(2)/2
Player May Ask Others Not to Search for His or Her Original Ball
If a player does not plan to search for his or her original ball because he or she would prefer to continue play with a provisional ball, the player may ask others not to search, but there is no obligation for them to comply.
If a ball is found, the player must make all reasonable efforts to identify the ball, provided he or she has not already played the provisional ball from nearer the hole than where the original ball was estimated to be, in which case it became the player's ball in play. If the provisional ball has not yet become the ball in play when another ball is found, refusal to make a reasonable effort to identify the found ball may be considered serious misconduct contrary to the spirit of the game (Rule 1.2a).
After the other ball is found, if the provisional ball is played from nearer the hole than where the other ball was found, and it turns out that the other ball was the player's original ball, the stroke at the provisional ball was actually a stroke at a wrong ball (Rule 6.3c). The player will get the general penalty and, in stroke play, must correct the error by continuing play with the original ball.

18.3c(2)/3
Opponent or Another Player May Search for Player’s Ball Despite the Player’s Request
Even if a player prefers to continue play of the hole with a provisional ball without searching for the original ball, the opponent or another player in stroke play may search for the player's original ball so long as it does not unreasonably delay play. If the player's original ball is found while it is still in play, the player must abandon the provisional ball (Rule 18.3c(3)).
For example, at a par-3 hole, a player's tee shot goes into dense woods, and he or she plays a provisional ball that comes to rest near the hole. Given this outcome, the player does not wish to find the original ball and walks directly towards the provisional ball to continue play with it. The player's opponent or another player in stroke play believes it would be beneficial to him or her if the original ball was found, so he or she begins searching for it.
If he or she finds the original ball before the player makes another stroke with the provisional ball the player must abandon the provisional ball and continue with the original ball. However, if the player makes another stroke with the provisional ball before the original ball is found, it becomes the ball in play because it was nearer the hole than the estimated spot of the original ball (Rule 18.3c(2)).
In match play, if the player's provisional ball is nearer the hole than the opponent's ball, the opponent may cancel the stroke and have the player play in the proper order (Rule 6.4a). However, cancelling the stroke would not change the status of the original ball, which is no longer in play.

 

[Orikoru]

So the opponent happens to be well forward or is on a buggy and arrives at the possible area a minute or so before the player and starts a perfunctory search. The player then arrives a makes a serious search but now only has two minutes left. Good idea?

No, obviously keep the rule as it is, but add a clause for 'in the event of the player not commencing a search for his own ball, opponent/fellow competitor adopts the 3 minute time limit'. Simple.

 

[Swango1980]

No, obviously keep the rule as it is, but add a clause for 'in the event of the player not commencing a search for his own ball, opponent/fellow competitor adopts the 3 minute time limit'. Simple.

But why update rules that add to slow play, and designed to effectively "screw" a golfer over for want of a better word. Might as well say that, if a player hits original ball in garbage, they must always play a provisional (not 3 off tee), and if original ball found it must always be the ball in play.

The importance of the rule now is, if a player chooses not to look for provisional, they are still not picking between 2 known positions. The original ball might actually be playable, but they are not taking that chance by not searching.

I don't see why some players are so keen to mess up another players score so much. If I play with someone, and they don't want to search for their original, I respect their decision. Even in match play, I wouldn't go looking. In fact, if I did go looking, as posted as an Interpretation earlier in this thread, I could be guilty of unduly delaying play and therefore being in breach of the rules myself?

 

[Maninblack4612]

OK this is against the spirit of the game!!

What man in black said isn't in the slightest, but this is ?

It's not against the spirit of the game, this is just plain cheating.

 

[Maninblack4612]

Why do you think the RBs didn't intend you to have a choice? How do you infer that from the words in the rule?

Why can't you play a provisional for a ball which may be unplayable then? Because you have to decide to replay before you know the outcome of the second shot. With a provisional for a lost ball you can be effectively doing the same thing. You hit your provisional down the middle, get to where you think the first one is, see that the rough is worse than you thought & it's likely to be unplayable so decide not to look for it. If you had hit your provisional into the same place you would have certainly looked for the first.

It's within the rules, no doubt, but the rule gives you a choice which you shouldn't really have, otherwise the choice would also be allowed for a ball that may be unplayable.

I hope I've made myself clear, perhaps "against the spirit of the game" wasn't quite accurate.

 

[Swango1980]

Why can't you play a provisional for a ball which may be unplayable then? Because you have to decide to replay before you know the outcome of the second shot. With a provisional for a lost ball you can be effectively doing the same thing. You hit your provisional down the middle, get to where you think the first one is, see that the rough is worse than you thought & it's likely to be unplayable so decide not to look for it. If you had hit your provisional into the same place you would have certainly looked for the first.

It's within the rules, no doubt, but the rule gives you a choice which you shouldn't really have, otherwise the choice would also be allowed for a ball that may be unplayable.

I hope I've made myself clear, perhaps "against the spirit of the game" wasn't quite accurate.

So, you are saying the rule is wrong? Write to the R&A. I'm surprised they let such a common thing slip through the net.

 

[rulefan]

No, obviously keep the rule as it is, but add a clause for 'in the event of the player not commencing a search for his own ball, opponent/fellow competitor adopts the 3 minute time limit'. Simple.

And time wasting. We'll have standoffs where the player hangs around on the other side of the fairway whilst another player spends three minutes looking for a ball hoping it will be unplayable.

 

[Orikoru]

But why update rules that add to slow play, and designed to effectively "screw" a golfer over for want of a better word. Might as well say that, if a player hits original ball in garbage, they must always play a provisional (not 3 off tee), and if original ball found it must always be the ball in play.

The importance of the rule now is, if a player chooses not to look for provisional, they are still not picking between 2 known positions. The original ball might actually be playable, but they are not taking that chance by not searching.

I don't see why some players are so keen to mess up another players score so much. If I play with someone, and they don't want to search for their original, I respect their decision. Even in match play, I wouldn't go looking. In fact, if I did go looking, as posted as an Interpretation earlier in this thread, I could be guilty of unduly delaying play and therefore being in breach of the rules myself?

How is it screwing anyone? Right now if there's a delay in play such as slow group in front, your matchplay opponent can search for your ball that you don't want to find for 5, 10 minutes. How is that fair?

And time wasting. We'll have standoffs where the player hangs around on the other side of the fairway whilst another player spends three minutes looking for a ball hoping it will be unplayable.

Hopefully most players are still decent enough that they wouldn't search that hard for their opponent's ball! I wouldn't do it. But this would just help on the one in 50 times it probably happens.

 

[Orikoru]

Why can't you play a provisional for a ball which may be unplayable then? Because you have to decide to replay before you know the outcome of the second shot. With a provisional for a lost ball you can be effectively doing the same thing. You hit your provisional down the middle, get to where you think the first one is, see that the rough is worse than you thought & it's likely to be unplayable so decide not to look for it. If you had hit your provisional into the same place you would have certainly looked for the first.

It's within the rules, no doubt, but the rule gives you a choice which you shouldn't really have, otherwise the choice would also be allowed for a ball that may be unplayable.

I hope I've made myself clear, perhaps "against the spirit of the game" wasn't quite accurate.

I do know what you're getting at. It seems like a bit of a 'loophole' which maybe isn't quite what the rules intended. i.e. when it was written they possibly assumed everyone would always look for their original ball, not wanting to lose one. But there are loads of rules that people read between the lines on to take advantage. Like when pros drop on a slope 3 times so they can place it. Or remember when that guy dug his feet into the bunkers and reckoned he got through to the lining so he got his ball moved or something? Plenty of rules can be used to your advantage.

 

[Swango1980]

I do know what you're getting at. It seems like a bit of a 'loophole' which maybe isn't quite what the rules intended. i.e. when it was written they possibly assumed everyone would always look for their original ball, not wanting to lose one. But there are loads of rules that people read between the lines on to take advantage. Like when pros drop on a slope 3 times so they can place it. Or remember when that guy dug his feet into the bunkers and reckoned he got through to the lining so he got his ball moved or something? Plenty of rules can be used to your advantage.

If this was thew case, why does Interpretation 18.3c(2)/2 specifically tell us a player can ask others not to search for his original ball? It is in black and white that the R&A 100% intend a player can do this. Of course, the person playing with them may or may not decide to oblige, that is up to them.

If we are talking about "against the spirit of the game", perhaps we can consider 2 golfers at a golf club:

Golfer A: Known to be the type, that after hitting a provisional, frequently deciding not to look for the original and carry on straight away with the provisional if in play;

Golfer B: Known to be the type, that when told by the Player they do not want to search for their original ball, they go and look anyway, and if they find it, often results in the Player getting a worse score than they would have got had they played with provisional.

Which golfer will have the "worse" reputation at the golf club? In my opinion, I'd be more critical of Golfer B, and I imagine other members would be as well (especially if they are Golfer A). Because, Golfer A is playing within the rules, as clarified in black and white. True, Golfer B probably is as well, although I'd ask the question, if there is no group in front is Golfer B unduly delaying play (which the rules make clear they cannot do in this specific situation)? After all, Player A has accepted he will take his stroke and distance penalty and continue play immediately. Meanwhile, Golfer B is spending time to go off and look in the woods, when he gets there have up to 3 minutes looking for the ball, if he finds it, calling Player A over to identify it and play it, then walking to his own ball to play. I bet the group behind might have got a little fed up in this period, especially if Golfer B was only doing it because he felt Player A would get a worse score than playing with the provisional.

So, personally, I can see that if Golfer B found the original accidentally, when searching for his own ball, or if a spectator saw the ball, then Golfer A would then need to play with that, because otherwise he'd have the option from 2 known positions if not. However, if it has not been found, and Golfer A requested he did not want it found, I personally think it would be poor form for Golfer B to act against his wishes intentionally.

 

[Maninblack4612]

So, you are saying the rule is wrong? Write to the R&A. I'm surprised they let such a common thing slip through the net.

Not saying it is wrong, just saying it has an unfortunate side effect. In view of this perhaps the rule should allow the provisional to be played if the ball is found and is declared to be unplayable.

 

[doublebogey7]

Why can't you play a provisional for a ball which may be unplayable then? Because you have to decide to replay before you know the outcome of the second shot. With a provisional for a lost ball you can be effectively doing the same thing. You hit your provisional down the middle, get to where you think the first one is, see that the rough is worse than you thought & it's likely to be unplayable so decide not to look for it. If you had hit your provisional into the same place you would have certainly looked for the first.

It's within the rules, no doubt, but the rule gives you a choice which you shouldn't really have, otherwise the choice would also be allowed for a ball that may be unplayable.

I hope I've made myself clear, perhaps "against the spirit of the game" wasn't quite accurate.

But with a lost ball you do not know the lie and precise location so you are not deciding between two knowns. Unlike with an unplayable where you would be getting a straight choice between two knowns.

 

[Orikoru]

If this was thew case, why does Interpretation 18.3c(2)/2 specifically tell us a player can ask others not to search for his original ball? It is in black and white that the R&A 100% intend a player can do this. Of course, the person playing with them may or may not decide to oblige, that is up to them.

If we are talking about "against the spirit of the game", perhaps we can consider 2 golfers at a golf club:

Golfer A: Known to be the type, that after hitting a provisional, frequently deciding not to look for the original and carry on straight away with the provisional if in play;

Golfer B: Known to be the type, that when told by the Player they do not want to search for their original ball, they go and look anyway, and if they find it, often results in the Player getting a worse score than they would have got had they played with provisional.

Which golfer will have the "worse" reputation at the golf club? In my opinion, I'd be more critical of Golfer B, and I imagine other members would be as well (especially if they are Golfer A). Because, Golfer A is playing within the rules, as clarified in black and white. True, Golfer B probably is as well, although I'd ask the question, if there is no group in front is Golfer B unduly delaying play (which the rules make clear they cannot do in this specific situation)? After all, Player A has accepted he will take his stroke and distance penalty and continue play immediately. Meanwhile, Golfer B is spending time to go off and look in the woods, when he gets there have up to 3 minutes looking for the ball, if he finds it, calling Player A over to identify it and play it, then walking to his own ball to play. I bet the group behind might have got a little fed up in this period, especially if Golfer B was only doing it because he felt Player A would get a worse score than playing with the provisional.

So, personally, I can see that if Golfer B found the original accidentally, when searching for his own ball, or if a spectator saw the ball, then Golfer B would then need to play with that, because otherwise he'd have the option from 2 known positions if not. However, if it has not been found, and Golfer A requested he did not want it found, I personally think it would be poor form for Golfer B to act against his wishes intentionally.

I wasn't really agreeing with him, I could just see where he was coming from. Personally I nearly always would wander over and have a brief glance, just on the off chance that I got really lucky and it hopped back out off a tree or something. So effectively I would begun my search then even if I abandon it after 5 seconds.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Just one of these rules like stroke and distance. Use in some circumstances and often another player will grumble as what you've done being against the spirit. Nothing wrong at all in using the rules to your advantage - especially where you accept any associated penalty.

Plenty of occasions when the rules work against the player or don't provide any relief from problematic situations that the player might deem as unfair - but that the rules simply consider 'rub of the green' - and so 'tough'.

 

[Swango1980]

Orikoru's question has still not been resolved...

A and B playing scratch singles, last out in a club county team semi final... Serious ? stuff...
Player A is walking up to and then waiting to play his provisional sitting in the middle of the 18th fairway. He is 1st to play but can't play until the green is clear, the group in front haven't even reached the green yet, let alone putted out.
Despite A not wanting his ball to be found, his matchplay opponent (who has had a nightmare on the hole and has played 2 already) is searching for A's ball and the situation actually allows B about 6 minutes without any undue delay.

This is within the rules, very conceivable, and is totally at odds with the player only being allowed 3 minutes.

Seems a bit bizarre.

I believe Post 67 does answer this, and you have backed this up with your example.

Within 18.3c(2)/3, it states "If he or she (the opponent) finds the original ball before the player makes another stroke with the provisional ball the player must abandon the provisional ball and continue with the original ball". So, if the player hasn't searched for the ball, then his opponent has all that time to find it as they are not unduly delaying play. So, if you know your opponent is trying to put you at a worse disadvantage than you are already in, probably best to go over, start a search for 1 second, then leave again (or make no effort to look in the most horrifically jungle like locations). At least that will limit the search to 3 minutes

 

[Maninblack4612]

But with a lost ball you do not know the lie and precise location so you are not deciding between two knowns. Unlike with an unplayable where you would be getting a straight choice between two knowns.

But in a situation where, once you get a good idea of the type of lie you're likely to have if you find it, it's virtually the same straight, obvious, choice. Play the provisional. After all, it's still a 2 shot, stroke & distance, penalty its not as if you're gaining much.

 

[Maninblack4612]

And of course ? an opponent may well see the player's ball whilst searching but is not under any obligation to announce that if he then believes that the ball isn't in such a bad position anyway.

Better to keep it under your foot until the 3 minutes are up. ?

 

[Italian outcast]

We have a Slugger White type guy at our course who carts around dealing with stuff like this

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I did note post 67, but it doesn't address the issue that the owner of the ball is limited to 3 minutes, but an opponent is not, that is unfair.

I noted previously that the player can "start" the search, ie start the 3 minute clock, but if he doesn't do it this it remains that the opponent has a non-specific period of time that is only limited by "undue delay" which could very easily run to well over 5 or 6 minutes.

The harsh fact is that if Player A had known the rules better - then, in the scenario he found himself in, he would immediately have gone to somewhere in the vicinity of where his ball is likely to be sitting and after a quick 1s 'non-look' walked away having started his 'search'. His opponent then has 2min 59s to continue his search - if that's his want.

 

[Swango1980]

I did note post 67, but it doesn't address the issue that the owner of the ball is limited to 3 minutes, but an opponent is not, that is unfair.

I noted previously that the player can "start" the search, ie start the 3 minute clock, but if he doesn't do it this it remains that the opponent has a non-specific period of time that is only limited by "undue delay" which could very easily run to well over 5 or 6 minutes.

It is not unfair, as SwingsitlikeHogan said. If the owner of the ball doesn't want to search for their ball, but sees his opponent going to look for it regardless, then he can either stand back and let him have as long as it takes (if slow group in front), or go over, start the clock himself, and then leave. Nothing is being done behind his back.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

It is not unfair, as SwingsitlikeHogan said. If the owner of the ball doesn't want to search for their ball, but sees his opponent going to look for it regardless, then he can either stand back and let him have as long as it takes (if slow group in front), or go over, start the clock himself, and then leave. Nothing is being done behind his back.

Done it myself plenty times. Walked to the vicinity of my first ball - had a very quick and cursory look at deep horrible gorse and said Nah! not going to bother. And walked to my provisional in the middle of the fairway. And that's all you need to do.