Any car mechanics

[GreiginFife]

Hi mate
my service manager (Nissan) says the earlier Micras can flood if you sit there pumping the throttle for any length of time while you are trying to crank it over. This would cause the lumpy running until it has cleared itself.
Battery alone wouldn't cause lumpy running but he said it's worth getting a battery test done on it.
Also, if it HAD flooded and you finally got it going again, it would most probably chuck a load of ***** out of the exhaust in it's efforts to clear itself. That's most probably what you saw.
Hope that helps
Rob

Rob, not sure your service manager is thinking sbout the same car here, but I am sure the 2002 Micra was an electronic throttle body with a throttle position sensor. Very, very hard to flood as the fuel flow to the injectors is controlled electronically and not like older cable throttles. By very hard, I would actually say impossible if the car isnt running.

 

[Nosevi]

Its also highly likely that if there was a misfire in any cylinder then the ECU would throw a fault and the EML would be on. If it was just struggling through low initial charge but all cylinders were firing, albeit poorly, then no fault would be thrown.

I appreciate you have a vintage sports car but modern engines/control systems are a million miles from your fairly rww mechanical Ferrari.

Must confess I didn't see the year but couldn't the snag still be the same - damp in the system? I've had it happen to cars from an old MGB to a more modern Skoda Fabia - exactly the same symptoms and exactly the same cause. In contrast I've push started several cars with completely flat batteries and never had one run anything but fine. I think a new coil pack for a 52 Nissan Micra runs at about £40 so hopefully not the end of the world if you can't get into it. We'll see what Fish comes back with

As an aside the Ferrari has 2 Motronic ECUs, MAFs that you need to set the resistance of, Lambda sensors etc and you have to reset the ECUs from time to time as they seem to forget things. It also posts error codes when the moon is in the wrong phase or, I expect, merely to piss me of

 

[GreiginFife]

Must confess I didn't see the year but couldn't the snag still be the same - damp in the system? I've had it happen to cars from an old MGB to a more modern Skoda Fabia - exactly the same symptoms and exactly the same cause. In contrast I've push started several cars with completely flat batteries and never had one run anything but fine. I think a new coil pack for a 52 Nissan Micra runs at about £40 so hopefully not the end of the world if you can't get into it. We'll see what Fish comes back with

As an aside the Ferrari has 2 Motronic ECUs, MAFs that you need to set the resistance of, Lambda sensors etc and you have to reset the ECUs from time to time as they seem to forget things. It also posts error codes when the moon is in the wrong phase or, I expect, merely to piss me of

Assuming that a misfire was being caused by condensation, or anything else, then a bigger problem exists if the ECU is not detecting and reporting in the form of the Engine Management Light coming on, which as it hasnt been mentioned, I assume hasn't happened.
A car starting from a bump/push start will probably run poorly when it starts but the act of it jolting (and the subsequent joy at it starting/relief) to start masks it slightly.

The question then remains that if this was merely a true misfire then why is the ECU not flagging it? It should flag misfire on bank x (P0340 I think).

Advice has been sough, advice has been given. Advice acceptance is discretionary of the OP. I can add no more in my limited knowledge.

 

[sawtooth]

Why does it "need changing anyway", especially if it turned out not to be the battery?

If its older than 4 years I would be inclined to just change it anyway. Halfords even fit it for you and take the old one away.

Old batteries are like leaky buckets trying to hold water.

Even if the alternator is good the battery most likely not able to store a good charge.

Cold weather affects battery efficiency plus there is additional load this time of year. Ie demisters, heaters, lights, etc as you will know.

Bad batteries get found out.

I think also a bad battery may affect quality of the spark, not sure in modern cars if this is the case. Buy might explain lumpiness if so.

 

[Golfmmad]

If not the battery, first thing that came to mind - is there antifreeze in the cooling system. Could explain a shuddery start and then running smoothly when warmed up. The recent cold snap could be causing water to start freezing if there isn't sufficient strength of antifreeze.

Just my thoughts. :mmm:

 

[Blue in Munich]

as that is a very far fetched and scaremongering post.

Symptoms of a blown head gasket:

There are a handful of symptoms a car with a blown head gasket will have. Some are more obvious than others.
The first, and possibly most notable, warning sign is an abnormally high engine temperature. If the thermostat on the dashboard is reading unusually high or the warning light comes on due to extremely high engine temperatures, this can indicate a couple different things. Abnormally high engine temperatures are a cause and a symptom of a blown head gasket. As stated above, high temperatures can damage a head gasket, but also once a head gasket has been damaged the engine temperature will immediately begin to rise. This takes us to our second symptom.
Symptom number two is low coolant levels. A faulty or damaged head gasket will leak coolant, so the coolant level indicator will be very low. It is important to check for pools of coolant that form when your vehicle is parked and to regularly check the coolant levels. Low coolant levels, as expected, will result in elevated engine temperature.
The third sign of a damaged head gasket is another obvious one. This symptom involves your vehicle not running smoothly. The engine will stutter, jolt, and / or stall. This will be especially likely to occur if the motor is cold. Older vehicles may have a tendency to exhibit similar behavior just because the engines are more weathered and don’t run as efficiently if they are not warmed up, so try to check for the other symptoms listed here as supporting evidence.

The fourth symptom is discolored oil. This discoloration is a result of coolant mixing with motor oil in the engine. The result will be a lighter than normal, almost milk-chocolate-like color, since the engine oil is dark and coolant is light in color.
The final major symptom to watch out for is a light-colored smoke coming out of the exhaust pipe. Almost gray or white in color, this can mean that the damaged head gasket has allowed coolant to leak into the combustion chamber and which is now burning.


So on the symptoms the OP has given us, it's exhibiting the 3rd & the 5th. The 1st may not be immediately apparent on short runs, so I've asked about the 2nd & 4th symptoms; if they're are there then there's the problem, if they aren't then we can conclusively eliminate it. So hardly scaremongering or far fetched.

What is your experience with cars?

Sufficient to know that two of the five symptoms were present and to ask about the other more relevant ones. I've also had this exact issue with one of my wife's cars; pig to start, ran rough until warm when the white smoke disappeared. Cracked cylinder head.

The OP asked for advice, I've offered it; Fish is free to make what he will of it, but he also knows me well enough to know that if it's been offered it's been done with the best intentions. I hope for his sake it isn't, but if it is the issue it needs looking at sooner rather than later. Whether it is right or wrong, it was certainly more constructive than telling the OP to go & learn about cars himself. Incidentally, what are your qualifications to give advice on the subject?

 

[c1973]

Hmmmm.....lots of advice here, some conflicting too,........id say it's pretty obvious you need new wiper blades.

I don't know owt about cars Tbf, but I'm sure my mate told me donkeys years ago that a little bit of water getting into the petrol mix when starting up would make the car judder a touch. No?

As, I say I'm clueless myself, but thought I'd post just in case there was some truth in it. I'm sure the guys in the know would know better, but you never know.

 

[DanFST]

The OP asked for advice, I've offered it; Fish is free to make what he will of it, but he also knows me well enough to know that if it's been offered it's been done with the best intentions. I hope for his sake it isn't, but if it is the issue it needs looking at sooner rather than later. Whether it is right or wrong, it was certainly more constructive than telling the OP to go & learn about cars himself. Incidentally, what are your qualifications to give advice on the subject?

I apologise if I came across a bit of an arse, it wasn't intentional. I did tell the OP to learn about cars himself. After I had given advice that it is most likely the battery, which was ignored as it would be "not cheap, and annoying if it wasn't correct". If you are going to ignore the advice, then the next step would be for the OP to learn how to perform the tests himself. And then failing that it needs ti be taken to a garage, which means this whole tread was pointless anyway!

However Car problem threads always have this sort of trend. Think of a car like the human body, if I had a chesty cough, I'd go to a doctor. I wouldn't go through the internet and search up the symptoms, as yes I may find the correct diagnosis, however I also notice that Lung cancer has similar symptoms, so I must have that. Especially if i was unable to perform any tests myself. So yes you are right, it could well be a problematic head gasket or a cracked cylinder head, as all the symptoms are correct. However it would be very very unlucky. And much easier just to check the battery first given the time of year, temperature and the fact it is 12 years old. Next step failing that maybe to check the block.

Sadly I have no formal qualifications to give advice on the subject. However cars are my true passion.
I am currently running a 1999 Nissan at just under 400bhp, with roll cage, brakes the size of your head, and fully adjustable suspension, uprated and modified everything. All maintained and built by myself. I also built my best friends Nissan in my garage over a winter, in which everything had to be modified and replaced to remove the 4 cylinder 2.0 turbo. And replace it with a Lexus V8.

 

[richart]

I am currently running a 1999 Nissan at just under 400bhp, with roll cage, brakes the size of your head, and fully adjustable suspension, uprated and modified everything.

Skyline ?

 

[sawtooth]

Someone mentioned a head gasket as a possibility.

Check for coolant loss and its sometimes possible to see oily residue in the reservoir.

Check oil dipstick for mayonnaise like residue. This could also appear underneath oil cap but a little could also be normal due to condensation.

If you suspect do a compression test, this is as easy as changing spark plugs but you need a gauge of course.

 

[JCW]

Cod weather always finds out if your battery is on the way out , Oil change is always good and needs to be done more often if journeys are short , Hope you sort it pal

 

[GreiginFife]

I know I said I had no more to add, however a couple if thoughts occurred to me;

Firstly, the head gasket symptoms 3 and 5 could just as easilybe caused by a single plug gapping issue, a problem with the crank sensor or a duff DIS pack. The only thing I would use to link it would be symptom 1, running ridiculously hot.
Secondly, related to head gasket, the lumpy runnung wouldnt be confined to start up necessarily.

The main thought I had was more a question, Fish you said you hooked the leads up and turned over the Mrs car... was your engine running or not?

If your engine wasn't running, try it again (check the Micra won't start first obviously) but try with your car engine running.

 

[D4RK1]

Skyline ?

I'd say more like a sunny.

 

[Fish]

The main thought I had was more a question, Fish you said you hooked the leads up and turned over the Mrs car... was your engine running or not?

If your engine wasn't running, try it again (check the Micra won't start first obviously) but try with your car engine running.

My engine was running when I hooked up the leads to the wifes car, her car then started immediately without any struggle that is usually associated with a flat or tired battery but was still lumpy & heavy for a minute or 2 until it then ticked over smoothly, surely if it was the wifes battery, this would now be eliminated because it has displayed the same symptoms whilst it was linked to my battery thus providing loads of charge?

Also, don't forget, this car went through an MOT only last Monday and passed without many if any future recommendations!

 

[Fish]

I apologise if I came across a bit of an arse, it wasn't intentional. I did tell the OP to learn about cars himself. After I had given advice that it is most likely the battery, which was ignored as it would be "not cheap, and annoying if it wasn't correct". If you are going to ignore the advice, then the next step would be for the OP to learn how to perform the tests himself. And then failing that it needs ti be taken to a garage, which means this whole tread was pointless anyway!

However Car problem threads always have this sort of trend. Think of a car like the human body, if I had a chesty cough, I'd go to a doctor. I wouldn't go through the internet and search up the symptoms, as yes I may find the correct diagnosis, however I also notice that Lung cancer has similar symptoms, so I must have that. Especially if i was unable to perform any tests myself. So yes you are right, it could well be a problematic head gasket or a cracked cylinder head, as all the symptoms are correct. However it would be very very unlucky. And much easier just to check the battery first given the time of year, temperature and the fact it is 12 years old. Next step failing that maybe to check the block.

Sadly I have no formal qualifications to give advice on the subject. However cars are my true passion.
I am currently running a 1999 Nissan at just under 400bhp, with roll cage, brakes the size of your head, and fully adjustable suspension, uprated and modified everything. All maintained and built by myself. I also built my best friends Nissan in my garage over a winter, in which everything had to be modified and replaced to remove the 4 cylinder 2.0 turbo. And replace it with a Lexus V8.

That's very nicely twisted, you said to "change the battery anyway", my obvious response is, if it turned out not to be the battery, which you or anyone else at this time cannot guarantee, but it is a possibility, then it would be an expense not needed!

With all the advice given, which I am grateful for, I am going to look and check over those things that I can do myself both visibly and physically, if I see any signs of anything described in these posts I can then look further into that area, if not, I can to a certain degree dismiss it and move on, anything I can do myself will be a lesser cost when it does eventually go to the garage next week for a service.

So, all the things mentioned (advised) are a help and allow me to create a "tic list" to work through today, starting with the battery, plugs, coolant etc, I have not ignored or dismissed anything!

 

[Region3]

Mine ticks over like a diesel (it's not) for a minute or two when I first start it in the cold, then it's fine.

I just put it down to waiting for the oil to warm and circulate fully. It's always better after a service which reinforces my guess.

 

[MadAdey]

Do Halfords still do the battery health checks for free? They check out the alternator and the diode pack.

Basically the alternator feeds the ignition system once the engine has started, so I would be surprised if your problem is battery related. If it was ignition related and you had a misfire problem I would expect your ECL to be flashing like mine was the other day. I hooked up my OBD scanner and it said misfire in cylinder 7 & 8, pulled the plugs and they needed changing.

you can get a plug puller a a set of plugs for a few quid from Halfords, might be worth looking into.

A lot of god intentions on here, but start with the simple stuff that either costs nothing or very little. A lot of this advice is going far too in depth, for what could be something very simple. At the end of the day if your bedroom light isn't working your not going to pull the consumer unit apart, not until you have changed the bulb and checked the switch is working.

 

[GreiginFife]

My engine was running when I hooked up the leads to the wifes car, her car then started immediately without any struggle that is usually associated with a flat or tired battery but was still lumpy & heavy for a minute or 2 until it then ticked over smoothly, surely if it was the wifes battery, this would now be eliminated because it has displayed the same symptoms whilst it was linked to my battery thus providing loads of charge?

Also, don't forget, this car went through an MOT only last Monday and passed without many if any future recommendations!

Battery is not an MOT check so would not be factored in. As long as, at the time, the car started and ran long enough for an emmissions check it wouldnt get a second thought.
You obviously have it in your mind that the batery is not at fault and so makes me wonder why you asked for advice just to dismiss it.

Yes your car running would give it a higher charge which is why it started with no struggle, its the Micras reliance on its own battery thereafter that seems the issue.

Still, by all means squirt away with as much WD40 as you like, doubt it will help though.

It should not be overlooked that the car had died and needed to be jump started in the first place, if there was no battery issue that would not be the case in my experience.
A dodgy spark plug or a cracked head would not drain a battery. Still, thats all the advice can give.

 

[GreiginFife]

Do Halfords still do the battery health checks for free? They check out the alternator and the diode pack.

Basically the alternator feeds the ignition system once the engine has started, so I would be surprised if your problem is battery related. If it was ignition related and you had a misfire problem I would expect your ECL to be flashing like mine was the other day. I hooked up my OBD scanner and it said misfire in cylinder 7 & 8, pulled the plugs and they needed changing.

you can get a plug puller a a set of plugs for a few quid from Halfords, might be worth looking into.

A lot of god intentions on here, but start with the simple stuff that either costs nothing or very little. A lot of this advice is going far too in depth, for what could be something very simple. At the end of the day if your bedroom light isn't working your not going to pull the consumer unit apart, not until you have changed the bulb and checked the switch is working.

Not strictly true, there is no "alternator circuit" thats separate to the battery. If the battery is of low charge then the alternator feeds through the battery needing to bring the battery charge level up. Hence the need to run a car with a flat battery for a whle once started, to let the alternator feed the battery to increase its charge.

 

[Fish]

Battery is not an MOT check so would not be factored in. As long as, at the time, the car started and ran long enough for an emmissions check it wouldnt get a second thought.

I know that, but as the vehicle was dropped at his garage the night before and the keys posted, it wouldn't have been unreasonable to think if he had experienced or heard the same symptoms that we are now, it would have been flagged up!

You obviously have it in your mind that the batery is not at fault and so makes me wonder why you asked for advice just to dismiss it..

I haven't, as I have clearly mentioned in my last post, it will get "ticked" off my check list, but people simply saying "it needs changing anyway" when it may not be the issue is not advice IMO!

Yes your car running would give it a higher charge which is why it started with no struggle, its the Micras reliance on its own battery thereafter that seems the issue..

But it did still produce exactly the same symptoms (as I previously stated) with the lumpy running off my battery at that time when it was hooked up to mine!

Still, by all means squirt away with as much WD40 as you like, doubt it will help though.

Thanks for your sarcasm, its duly noted, I have clearly stated in my last post that I will be working through a check list from the advice given!

It should not be overlooked that the car had died and needed to be jump started in the first place, if there was no battery issue that would not be the case in my experience.

As per my 1st post, I didn't experience this and only went by what the wife said when she walked back in, I never tried it and just hooked it up when I returned and heard the lumpiness and heavy running for a minute or 2 before it ran smooth again.

A dodgy spark plug or a cracked head would not drain a battery. Still, thats all the advice can give.

Thanks.
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Last night and still this morning we have possibly had the coldest night to date, her car was encrusted in ice, as I prepared my car to drop the wife off I thought I'd just try hers, and, it fired up 1st time! The lumpiness/heavy running lasted 5-10 seconds at most and then ran and ticked over smooth!

So I drove her to her work the 0.8 miles and took the car down the A45 for a run, initially in the side streets she felt sluggish and I felt I was going through the gears very quickly, I understand she's not like my 2.8l beast but she still didn't feel right, so I opened her up and as I got further down the A45 she felt easier at certain speeds and didn't feel forced, if you know what I mean? After coming back off the A45 and back into the side streets, the overall power/engine felt more consistent and comfortable and I was not going through the gears as much as earlier.

As I have stated before, this car drives 0.8 miles to & fro to her works 5-days a week and marginally goes further on a Saturday, could all this be a combination of the severe drop in temperature and the car not getting a regular decent run?

I will still go through the basic check list I've compiled, which will include checking the battery, but, surely if it was the battery and with it not being charged in any way yesterday other than its normal 0.8 mile journey back home and with it being even colder last night, surely it would have been dead today?