Advantages for the flag being left in / out ?

[Orikoru]

I was taught to hit the back of the hole when putting.
With the flag in you can’t do that.
I think having a choice is best , you just have to be sensible about the order.
Let people with flag in putt first or last it’s not difficult.

The equivalent is hitting it straight at the flagstick though. I still think I might just leave it in for downhillers just in case I whack it too hard and want the stick to slow it down. And I'll leave it in from longer range since it probably makes no difference anyway.

 

[Imurg]

JT went on record that he couldn't take himself seriously if he left the flag in....no science involved...all between the ears.

 

[theoneandonly]

Absolutely.

Whether the flag is in or not, the dimensions of the hole remain the same. So, there is no physical advantage to having the flag in, except that it may stop a ridiculously rapid putt that would have jumped over the hole if flag was not there. However, if this is the reason for having it left in for putts of about 2-20 feet, that player has much bigger putting problems than worrying about whether the flagstick is in or not. Even so, if it was the reason, the ball could just as easily bounce off the flagstick away from the hole, whereas it might have dropped in the fat part of the hole if the flag wasn't there.

So, there is no genuine physical advantage. It is purely mental and how we visualise our putting. Some like to see the full hole, others possibly like to focus on the pin itself. No global right answer that fits all. However, in a general context, I would say most would prefer the pin out. We can see that when the professionals putt, in that most have it out. Also, at least at my old and new clubs, the vast majority want the flag out, or at best they don't care enough so they'll just do what is easiest at any time. I think I've only played with 2 or 3 people in last few years who actually like the flag in. We also can't use the excuse "people only have it out due to habit". Not sure if anyone remembers Covid, but we had to play golf for a long time in which we were not allowed to remove the flag. Plenty of time to get used to it. Personally, I hated it, and over time my putting suffered. Once that restriction was lifted, I was overjoyed, get that flag out. And my putting improved again.

One other really annoying issue that can sometimes happen when leaving the flag in. Short putts on a very windy day, and having that flag flapping noisily near my face.

So there is no advantage to having the flag in? But you initially list and advantage?

 

[Swango1980]

So there is no advantage to having the flag in? But you initially list and advantage?

You obviously didn't read what I said properly. Or, perhaps you need additional words so that you can understand context?

If you are genuinely concerned you might smash a putt over the hole, then perhaps there might be an advantage to leaving the flag in (or not, if the flag deflects it away from the hole). That is debateable, but maybe why golfers prefer to keep the flag in for severe downhill slopes to the hole?

However, for most short to medium putts, I am pretty sure that nearly all golfers are NOT concerned about smashing the ball over the hole. I'm not anyway. Therefore, there is no realistic physical advantage to leaving the flag in. And, as I said, if you are still concerned about smashing the putt over the hole, whether the flag is in or not is the least of your concerns.

 

[theoneandonly]

You obviously didn't read what I said properly. Or, perhaps you need additional words so that you can understand context?

If you are genuinely concerned you might smash a putt over the hole, then perhaps there might be an advantage to leaving the flag in (or not, if the flag deflects it away from the hole). That is debateable, but maybe why golfers prefer to keep the flag in for severe downhill slopes to the hole?

However, for most short to medium putts, I am pretty sure that nearly all golfers are NOT concerned about smashing the ball over the hole. I'm not anyway. Therefore, there is no realistic physical advantage to leaving the flag in. And, as I said, if you are still concerned about smashing the putt over the hole, whether the flag is in or not is the least of your concerns.

So whats the advantage of leaving it out? Now we know their is one for it being in?

 

[Swango1980]

So whats the advantage of leaving it out? Now we know their is one for it being in?

Actually, looks like you are trolling this thread. Or, you are only reading what you want to read, and incapable of taking part in a sensible discussion?

Firstly, from a physical point of view, I of course mentioned an "occasional" advantage of having the flag left in, to stop a rapid putt. However, you have completely ignored the other point I made. That the flag could just as easily deflect the ball away from the hole, rather than having it drop into the hole if it hadn't been there. So, that is a direct answer to your question.

Secondly, the physical advantage / disadvantage of having a flag left in is simply not applicable in virtually all short to medium putts for most golfers. So, you can simply rule it out. The reason for having it in is 100% mental in those circumstances. And, I and others have given reasons why having the flag left out is BETTER for US in those situations. The hole looks bigger, some like to visualise the back of the hole, etc.

 

[theoneandonly]

Actually, looks like you are trolling this thread. Or, you are only reading what you want to read, and incapable of taking part in a sensible discussion?

Firstly, from a physical point of view, I of course mentioned an "occasional" advantage of having the flag left in, to stop a rapid putt. However, you have completely ignored the other point I made. That the flag could just as easily deflect the ball away from the hole, rather than having it drop into the hole if it hadn't been there. So, that is a direct answer to your question.

Secondly, the physical advantage / disadvantage of having a flag left in is simply not applicable in virtually all short to medium putts for most golfers. So, you can simply rule it out. The reason for having it in is 100% mental in those circumstances. And, I and others have given reasons why having the flag left out is BETTER for US in those situations. The hole looks bigger, some like to visualise the back of the hole, etc.

Your post doesn't really make sense, no advantage but there is an advantage? Then defaulting to the old i must be a troll as I don't agree with your opinion which be clear is all it is, despite your efforts to make it out to be some kind of immutable fact..

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Actually, looks like you are trolling this thread. Or, you are only reading what you want to read, and incapable of taking part in a sensible discussion?

Firstly, from a physical point of view, I of course mentioned an "occasional" advantage of having the flag left in, to stop a rapid putt. However, you have completely ignored the other point I made. That the flag could just as easily deflect the ball away from the hole, rather than having it drop into the hole if it hadn't been there. So, that is a direct answer to your question.

Secondly, the physical advantage / disadvantage of having a flag left in is simply not applicable in virtually all short to medium putts for most golfers. So, you can simply rule it out. The reason for having it in is 100% mental in those circumstances. And, I and others have given reasons why having the flag left out is BETTER for US in those situations. The hole looks bigger, some like to visualise the back of the hole, etc.

...and on sunny days I can do without the shadow of the flagstick or a flapping flag distracting me...especially when that shadow can be on or close to my line of putt or in my field of vision. I just don't need it.

 

[theoneandonly]

...and on sunny days I can do without the shadow of the flagstick or a flapping flag distracting me...

And what about your own shadow?

 

[Orikoru]

And what about your own shadow?

He's actually a vampire so he doesn't have one.

 

[theoneandonly]

He's actually a vampire so he doesn't have one.

Ah yes but then he could only play night golf.

 

[Springveldt]

Absolutely.

Whether the flag is in or not, the dimensions of the hole remain the same. So, there is no physical advantage to having the flag in, except that it may stop a ridiculously rapid putt that would have jumped over the hole if flag was not there. However, if this is the reason for having it left in for putts of about 2-20 feet, that player has much bigger putting problems than worrying about whether the flagstick is in or not. Even so, if it was the reason, the ball could just as easily bounce off the flagstick away from the hole, whereas it might have dropped in the fat part of the hole if the flag wasn't there.

So, there is no genuine physical advantage. It is purely mental and how we visualise our putting. Some like to see the full hole, others possibly like to focus on the pin itself. No global right answer that fits all. However, in a general context, I would say most would prefer the pin out. We can see that when the professionals putt, in that most have it out. Also, at least at my old and new clubs, the vast majority want the flag out, or at best they don't care enough so they'll just do what is easiest at any time. I think I've only played with 2 or 3 people in last few years who actually like the flag in. We also can't use the excuse "people only have it out due to habit". Not sure if anyone remembers Covid, but we had to play golf for a long time in which we were not allowed to remove the flag. Plenty of time to get used to it. Personally, I hated it, and over time my putting suffered. Once that restriction was lifted, I was overjoyed, get that flag out. And my putting improved again.

One other really annoying issue that can sometimes happen when leaving the flag in. Short putts on a very windy day, and having that flag flapping noisily near my face.

The MyGolfSpy video did show an advantage though? More putts dropped when the flag was in than out on putts that were a bit pacy.

 

[Swango1980]

The MyGolfSpy video did show an advantage though? More putts dropped when the flag was in than out on putts that were a bit pacy.

As I said though, if I have a putt inside about 20 feet, I don't think I have ever hit a putt that hard that it has jumped over the hole. Hence why I ruled that out for that range of putt.

 

[Swango1980]

Your post doesn't really make sense, no advantage but there is an advantage? Then defaulting to the old i must be a troll as I don't agree with your opinion which be clear is all it is, despite your efforts to make it out to be some kind of immutable fact..

I assumed that to be the case, as you asked a question I had already very specifically answered. It just appears you want there to be an absolute black and white answer, and that being having the flagstick in is best in all situations for all golfers?

The range of putt could also play a very important role. If you have a 60 foot putt that you are hoping to lag, then perhaps leaving the flag in starts to make more sense. Players probably visualise the hole less anyway, as they are far away and not expecting to make it. There is also a chance the putt might be too pacy, and at that point having the flag in might provide a small advantage (still only a very small advantage, in that the chances of a player actually hitting the flag, at a particular pace, are still very remote). So, the key advantage in this case is probably less to do with the quality of putt that is made, but simply being able see your target area, as the hole may not be very clear (and also speeding up play compared to the old method of having it attended).

My earlier comments were very much focused on the closer range putts, at which point, as I have said, the issue is pretty much 100% mental, except in the case of the very worst putters who have no sense of feel whatsoever

I've just randomly googled the issue. From one point of view, evaluated in much more depth than any of us have done, see the link:

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/th...me#:~:text=That's .,flagstick out of the hole.

Some quotes from it are:

"The facts of his study suggest the opposite, that the flagstick does much, much more to hurt your chances of a putt going in than help turn a bad putt into a made one"

"Leaving the flagstick in may have some benefits but from a physics standpoint, there is zero evidence to suggest that the flagstick helps in any but the rarest of situations."

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

And what about your own shadow?

Can't do anything about that.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

The MyGolfSpy video did show an advantage though? More putts dropped when the flag was in than out on putts that were a bit pacy.

OK - remind me of the video's analysis of the mindset of a representative sample of golfers perception of the hole.

As had been said so many times - putting is not simply about the physics of the interaction of ball, hole and flagstick. And even if it was I'd prefer to remove variables in the equation - with one variable being the flagstick. But it isn't.

 

[Jimaroid]

"Leaving the flagstick in may have some benefits but from a physics standpoint, there is zero evidence to suggest that the flagstick helps in any but the rarest of situations."

Same article that Liverpoolphil linked but just on this quoted point. The “some benefits” referred to here (context is important) is only in terms of an individual’s perception - it’s a mental thing. The measurable physics is undeniable: take the flag out.

Just thought I’d point that before someone replies without reading the article saying it has some benefits to leave the flag in.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Same article that Liverpoolphil linked but just on this quoted point. The “some benefits” referred to here (context is important) is only in terms of an individual’s perception - it’s a mental thing. The measurable physics is undeniable: take the flag out.

Just thought I’d point that before someone replies without reading the article saying it has some benefits to leave the flag in.

Thing is - putting is first and foremost about perception - about how we perceive the hole; how we perceive the borrow; what we perceive our line and weight to be. Once we have sorted that lot out the putt can become completely mechanical - and that is where the empirical analysis of ball hitting hole/flag comes in. But the mechanical bit is worthless if the perception bit is wrong. My perception is improved if I have the flag out, and so I have it out for all putts other than those where seeing the hole is difficult - usually length or putting up step in green - when my perception is impacted and impaired.

 

[Jimaroid]

Thing is - putting is first and foremost about perception - about how we perceive the hole;

Human perception is easily fooled and often wrong. Consider any optical illusion as proof of this.

I am more comfortable knowing that, by removing the flag, I am giving myself the best chance and golf is ultimately a game of chance when you remove all the human variables.

 

[clubchamp98]

The equivalent is hitting it straight at the flagstick though. I still think I might just leave it in for downhillers just in case I whack it too hard and want the stick to slow it down. And I'll leave it in from longer range since it probably makes no difference anyway.

If that’s how you see it that’s fine.
But I see it differently that’s why we have a choice.
No right or wrong here.
It why we don’t all use the same clubs, balls it’s a choice.