Advantages for the flag being left in / out ?

[Swango1980]

Human perception is easily fooled and often wrong. Consider any optical illusion as proof of this.

I am more comfortable knowing that, by removing the flag, I am giving myself the best chance and golf is ultimately a game of chance when you remove all the human variables.

In other words, you are mentally happier having the flag in? That is fine, no one disagrees with that.

Furthermore, whether an individuals perception is fooled or not, it is still their perception. If having the flagstick in causes one individual to constantly yip the ball, and having it out them visualise the putt better, then that individual is absolutely 100% better taking the flagstick out.

And, as I said before, I am 100% sure than I have not hit one putt in the last number of years (in fact, probably since I started playing in 2005), from inside 20 feet at least, that has bounced over the hole. Therefore, not once from that range would the flagstick ever physically helped me. A very quick estimate, I'd make that over 55,000 putts. So, I'm pretty confident that the flagstick will give me no physical advantage, whilst it certainly doesn't give me a mental one. Outside 20 or 30 feet, however, then I'd probably leave it in anyway. And, as it may be harder to judge the pace at that distance all the time, then there probably is a very very very small advantage leaving it in.

 

[cliveb]

There's a simple solution to put a stop to this futile debate: return to the pre-2019 rule that requires you to remove the flagstick.
(Not being serious, just in case anyone thinks I am).

 

[Deleted member 23270]

And the ones who leave it in?

You mean the 5 or 10% of guys on tour?

 

[Swango1980]

I liked Harrington's take on it:

“So if you’re planning for a bad putt, fine, but if you’re planning to hit a good putt, all the science says take it out.”

 

[Mandofred]

I assumed that to be the case, as you asked a question I had already very specifically answered. It just appears you want there to be an absolute black and white answer, and that being having the flagstick in is best in all situations for all golfers?

The range of putt could also play a very important role. If you have a 60 foot putt that you are hoping to lag, then perhaps leaving the flag in starts to make more sense. Players probably visualise the hole less anyway, as they are far away and not expecting to make it. There is also a chance the putt might be too pacy, and at that point having the flag in might provide a small advantage (still only a very small advantage, in that the chances of a player actually hitting the flag, at a particular pace, are still very remote). So, the key advantage in this case is probably less to do with the quality of putt that is made, but simply being able see your target area, as the hole may not be very clear (and also speeding up play compared to the old method of having it attended).

My earlier comments were very much focused on the closer range putts, at which point, as I have said, the issue is pretty much 100% mental, except in the case of the very worst putters who have no sense of feel whatsoever

I've just randomly googled the issue. From one point of view, evaluated in much more depth than any of us have done, see the link:

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-science-behind-why-the-flagstick-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time#:~:text=That's .,flagstick out of the hole.

Some quotes from it are:

"The facts of his study suggest the opposite, that the flagstick does much, much more to hurt your chances of a putt going in than help turn a bad putt into a made one"

"Leaving the flagstick in may have some benefits but from a physics standpoint, there is zero evidence to suggest that the flagstick helps in any but the rarest of situations."

You mean the 5 or 10% of guys on tour?

If it was obviously better to take the flag out....would these 5-10% leave the flag in?

One person quotes a study that shows that it's better to take the flag out. PROOF!!!
One person quotes a study that shows that it's better to leave the flag in. PROOF!!

People will go with whatever the already believe to be the right answer.

I liked Harrington's take on it:

“So if you’re planning for a bad putt, fine, but if you’re planning to hit a good putt, all the science says take it out.”

Some science says take it out. Some science says leave it in. Amateurs......can only hope to make a good putt.

 

[Imurg]

I liked Harrington's take on it:

“So if you’re planning for a bad putt, fine, but if you’re planning to hit a good putt, all the science says take it out.”

Just bear in mind that's a Pro talking...Pros don't hit many bad putts...we do...

 

[Orikoru]

If it was obviously better to take the flag out....would these 5-10% leave the flag in?

One person quotes a study that shows that it's better to take the flag out. PROOF!!!
One person quotes a study that shows that it's better to leave the flag in. PROOF!!

People will go with whatever the already believe to be the right answer.


Some science says take it out. Some science says leave it in.

I'm perfectly happy to adjust my thinking based on the data. As you say, there has been 'proof' on both sides. I've certainly seen more information that says leaving it in is better, but as was just touched upon, a lot of this is only beneficial on putts that you've smashed far too hard. I think if you get the pace somewhat correct there probably isn't much difference - and we're back to whatever you prefer to look at when you're aiming.

 

[Swango1980]

Just bear in mind that's a Pro talking...Pros don't hit many bad putts...we do...

Yes. BUT, inside 20 feet, MY bad putts miss the hole entirely, they don't fly over the top of it. So, leaving the flag in is not going to help me with my bad putts anyway

 

[Mandofred]

I'm perfectly happy to adjust my thinking based on the data. As you say, there has been 'proof' on both sides. I've certainly seen more information that says leaving it in is better, but as was just touched upon, a lot of this is only beneficial on putts that you've smashed far too hard. I think if you get the pace somewhat correct there probably isn't much difference - and we're back to whatever you prefer to look at when you're aiming.

Yep. That's how I think. If I hit it the right speed.....it doesn't matter if the flag is in or out. The ol' 6-12" past the hole is my goal..... If I hit it 10 feet past the hole...well, there will be a clang and a bounce involved. So really.....the whole flag in or out debate depends on whether you suck or not.

 

[Swango1980]

If it was obviously better to take the flag out....would these 5-10% leave the flag in?

One person quotes a study that shows that it's better to take the flag out. PROOF!!!
One person quotes a study that shows that it's better to leave the flag in. PROOF!!

People will go with whatever the already believe to be the right answer.


Some science says take it out. Some science says leave it in. Amateurs......can only hope to make a good putt.

Just to reaffirm, MY opinion was that it depends on the individual's mentality. For some it is much better having the flag out, others (but apparently fewer) having it in works best.

 

[Mandofred]

Just to reaffirm, MY opinion was that it depends on the individual's mentality. For some it is much better having the flag out, others (but apparently fewer) having it in works best.

The VAST majority of people I see on the course leave the flag in. I'm not saying they are right....it might just be laziness. Where did you get your "fewer" numbers from?

 

[Imurg]

Yes. BUT, inside 20 feet, MY bad putts miss the hole entirely, they don't fly over the top of it. So, leaving the flag in is not going to help me with my bad putts anyway

Therefore it wouldn't do any harm leaving it .....

 

[Swango1980]

The VAST majority of people I see on the course leave the flag in. I'm not saying they are right....it might just be laziness. Where did you get your "fewer" numbers from?

The vast majority of people on my course, and my last one take the flag out. More importantly, the vast majority of professionals take the flag out (as I said before, they are always looking for marginal gains)

It should also be pointed out, many club golfers are not necessarily that bothered about the chances of holing a putt. They may be terrible putters to not care, or just not that competitively minded. So, they are less bothered about the odds of making the putt (marginal odds improvements), and are more interested in getting on with things quickly. Therefore, many are just as happy to keep the flag in, and they'd also be happy to have it out if someone had already taken it out.

 

[Swango1980]

Therefore it wouldn't do any harm leaving it .....

Nope, as I said, leaving it in significantly increases the amount of bad putts I make sadly.

 

[Slab]

Whatever state I find it when taking my putt is fine

If there was a forecaddie taking the flag out before I walked on the green I'd leave it out, since its in then I leave it in. If another player takes it out I'll leave it out

It really isn't a deal breaker either way

 

[Mandofred]

If I were smart enough....I'd do a poll.

*From 10 feet, you would leave the flag in.
*From 10 feet, you would take the flag out.
*From 10 feet, you would leave the flag in if it was a skinny flag.
*From 10 feet, you would take the flag out if it was a skinny flag.

 

[Mandofred]

The vast majority of people on my course, and my last one take the flag out. More importantly, the vast majority of professionals leave the flag in (as I said before, they are always looking for marginal gains)
.

Freudian slip??

 

[Swango1980]

Freudian slip??

haha, indeed. Teaches me rushing a post. Edited.

 

[Jimaroid]

In other words, you are mentally happier having the flag in? That is fine, no one disagrees with that.

Well, sort of. My point was that I'm mentally comfortable with the idea of having to go against my perception and putting with the flag out. Feel vs real?

 

[Mandofred]

I'm pretty sure this thread has proved that golfers aren't quite right in the head.......