90% versus 3/4

[Deleted member 15344]

Is it true that CONGU only attempt to offer advice for proper "qualifying" competitions - as such, I don't think they meant for this rule to be implemented in non-qualifying comps do they?

That would mean any course shorter than a certain yardage of the full competition tees (whites) CSS for the course could not count.
Perhaps this is where the confusion between CONGU and club comps is happening?

So CONGU coming up with a change and subsequently club committees perhaps not appreciating the effect of winter conditions and a much shorter yardages.

Knockouts and 4BBB are never Qualfiying comps- the only Qualfiying comps are singles competitions provided the course is at the required length for qualifying etc

There is no "confusion" Congu state the required HC allowances for various team and mixed competitions

 

[GreggerKBR]

Knockouts and 4BBB are never Qualfiying comps- the only Qualfiying comps are singles competitions provided the course is at the required length for qualifying etc

There is no "confusion" Congu state the required HC allowances for various team and mixed competitions

Thanks for clarification
Do Congu stipulate which tee a 4BBB comp should be played off?
Also, iS it fair to say the majority of Cat 1-3 handicaps are established in singles stroke play competitions, off competition (white) tees?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Thanks for clarification
Do Congu stipulate which tee a 4BBB comp should be played off?
Also, iS it fair to say the majority of Cat 1-3 handicaps are established in singles stroke play competitions, off competition (white) tees?

The clubs competitions rules will stipulate what tees any comp is played off


All handicaps are established off a measured courses - colour of tee doesn't matter as a the tee has a SSS assigned

 

[Fish]

but isn't it 90% of the difference in match play?? so its not the case a 4 handicap loses no shot, he won't get any shots and say he was playing a 20 handicap, they would get 90% of 16 so still 14 shots while the 4 handicap gets not.

are there individual stroke play comps where 90% is used?

Singles is alway full difference I believe.

Yes 90% of difference in match play but in an open BB comp against the field which I think was the original grump, your both playing off 90% of your handicaps as a pair.

You say 'still gets' 14 shots but that 20 handicapper in matchplay has to play better than his buffer whereas the Cat1 simply plays to handicap, I still think that sits in favour of the Cat1. I know there will be times (removing winter & short courses out of the scenario) that the player with a shot will get a par requiring a birdie for a half, but how many times in a round? He's a 20 capper for a reason and the other is a Cat1 for a reason and it should be a leveller imo.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Surely if any system or % is right or wrong it has to be proven rather than knee jerking, ie, have Club Comps this year seen a rise in winners handicaps, any change takes time and if Clubs start ignoring guidelines or doing their own thing it undermines the whole sport.
90% may turn out to be a bad call, but at least give it a chance, I seem to remember someone saying CONGU had intended to go 100% straight away but was worried about the backlash.

 

[GreggerKBR]

The clubs competitions rules will stipulate what tees any comp is played off


All handicaps are established off a measured courses - colour of tee doesn't matter as a the tee has a SSS assigned

So a low handicap player could spend most of the summer season playing off the whites and in competitions with handicap fluctuating according to CSS.... but anyone (including the high or low h/c) could play minimal competitions off whites and maintain a h/c off shorter yellow's.

Then in a winter 4BBB be competing against on the shorter course in softer or easier/more difficult conditions depending...

Interesting...
so the idea is that CONGU gives us an equitable system for players of all abilities/categories.

But in reality equity is more relevant to the player's history/activity and the course (whatever the length/condition)...

Hopefully in general everyone's taking a relaxed fun attitude to it and not over analysing the minute elements of this or getting too bothered about it!

 

[Fish]

We have decided to keep a maximum of 18 shots in the singles matchplay

Is this all year in your main comps, if so, is that not in breach of what Congu is asking everyone to follow and adopt, and more so, does it not discriminate against a higher handicapper getting drawn against a Cat1, for example a new 28 handicapper wanting to get involved and feeling inclusive, something I know your big on, but then drawing a 4 handicapper and being expected to play 6 shots better just to be on a level footing!

Surely this would put anyone over a 20 handicap off entering as their being penalised before they hit a ball!

 

[GreggerKBR]

Singles is alway full difference I believe.

Yes 90% of difference in match play but in an open BB comp against the field which I think was the original grump, your both playing off 90% of your handicaps as a pair.

You say 'still gets' 14 shots but that 20 handicapper in matchplay has to play better than his buffer whereas the Cat1 simply plays to handicap, I still think that sits in favour of the Cat1. I know there will be times (removing winter & short courses out of the scenario) that the player with a shot will get a par requiring a birdie for a half, but how many times in a round? He's a 20 capper for a reason and the other is a Cat1 for a reason and it should be a leveller imo.

It does happen...

In singles matchplay k/o I found myself 4 up with 4 to play against a 21 h/c last year.
And I was giving 2 shots over those 4 holes.

He played those 4 holes in 2-under.

So, I'd have needed at least one birdie - sadly I failed, he made it to the final!

All credit to the chap, I'm not short but he could smash it miles... and sometimes really close to the golf course.

 

[chrisd]

To those that keep using a winter league as a reason not to use 90%, are those winter leagues an official board comp? If they are, doesn't that undermine the integrity of your board competitions being as nature normally dictates shorter courses with temp greens?

Ours is an official board comp and recognised as the major pairs comp to win

 

[Fish]

It does happen...

In singles matchplay k/o I found myself 4 up with 4 to play against a 21 h/c last year.
And I was giving 2 shots over those 4 holes.

He played those 4 holes in 2-under.

So, I'd have needed at least one birdie - sadly I failed, he made it to the final!

All credit to the chap, I'm not short but he could smash it miles... and sometimes really close to the golf course.

I know it happens on any given day, I've got my own wall of scalps proudly mounted, but I've never won the Comp outright as I'm not consistent to get through possibly 6/7 rounds, but I'm sure that the odd one that goes all the way, is a fast improver and will get suitably cut during the season or get reviewed at the end.

 

[patricks148]

Singles is alway full difference I believe.

Yes 90% of difference in match play but in an open BB comp against the field which I think was the original grump, your both playing off 90% of your handicaps as a pair.

You say 'still gets' 14 shots but that 20 handicapper in matchplay has to play better than his buffer whereas the Cat1 simply plays to handicap, I still think that sits in favour of the Cat1. I know there will be times (removing winter & short courses out of the scenario) that the player with a shot will get a par requiring a birdie for a half, but how many times in a round? He's a 20 capper for a reason and the other is a Cat1 for a reason and it should be a leveller imo.

whats buffer got to do with it? Buffer doesn't come into it, its matchplay.

if a 4 handicap is playing against a 20 handicap, the 20 is getting 90 % the diff so 14 shots the 4 handicap gets none

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Is this all year in your main comps, if so, is that not in breach of what Congu is asking everyone to follow and adopt, and more so, does it not discriminate against a higher handicapper getting drawn against a Cat1, for example a new 28 handicapper wanting to get involved and feeling inclusive, something I know your big on, but then drawing a 4 handicapper and being expected to play 6 shots better just to be on a level footing!

Surely this would put anyone over a 20 handicap off entering as their being penalised before they hit a ball!

The maximum of 18 is for the singles matchplay competition

This year the final was between a 23 HC and an 18 HC - i for drawn against a 26 HC gave him 18 shots I was 1 under gross after 15 holes as I lost 4 & 3 to him - he went all the way to the semi final but got beat by the 23 HC

The maximum of 18 shots has worked well with the comp and the sign up this year includes a lot of 20 plus HCs but none Cat 1

 

[chrisd]

Am I missing something, off 12 you'll lose 1 shot now where as against a 4 handicapper they'd lose nothing, so it still falls in favour to the lower handicapper who will be far more consistent and probably more times than not, will win through.

As for shortened courses that's only at winter so for me we shouldn't take much from it but based on the above it just probably evens it up a bit.

#StampHandicapSnobberyOut

I hardly play any singles knock outs because, like many here say, arranging games with idiots who enter but work 24/7 and expect you to play on the only 1 day and time of their choosing has put me right off. I find off 12 and my partner (MashlyR7) off 10 it usually works quite well whether we play higher or lower handicappers and we also have an 18 upper limit. In the last game we played a 17 handicapper who hardly missed a fairway and generally played much better than 17 - had it not been off a really shorter course, his lack of length would have meant the handicap differences would have remained correct, luckily for us his partner played quite poorly!

I, really am quite happy with the 90%

 

[Fish]

whats buffer got to do with it? Buffer doesn't come into it, its matchplay.

if a 4 handicap is playing against a 20 handicap, the 20 is getting 90 % the diff so 14 shots the 4 handicap gets none

I'm using buffer purely as an indicator to his playing ability, hence why there are various catergory's with various buffer values, the higher the buffer displays the more inconsistent golfer.

I measure myself by how many times I play within my buffer, if I'm expected to play better than it before I even hit a ball and my opposition isn't, well I'm on a hiding to nothing!

 

[Fish]

The maximum of 18 is for the singles matchplay competition

This year the final was between a 23 HC and an 18 HC - i for drawn against a 26 HC gave him 18 shots I was 1 under gross after 15 holes as I lost 4 & 3 to him - he went all the way to the semi final but got beat by the 23 HC

The maximum of 18 shots has worked well with the comp and the sign up this year includes a lot of 20 plus HCs but none Cat 1

I bet they all featured in the annual review 😂😂

 

[Robobum]

I see absolutely no reason to enter any handicap matchplay comp under these new guidelines.

I would just be, what we call a "PFB" - Prize Fund Booster.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

whats buffer got to do with it? Buffer doesn't come into it, its matchplay.

if a 4 handicap is playing against a 20 handicap, the 20 is getting 90 % the diff so 14 shots the 4 handicap gets none

But the 20 handicapper has still lost 6 shots to your 4.

 

[patricks148]

I'm using buffer purely as an indicator to his playing ability, hence why there are various catergory's with various buffer values, the higher the buffer displays the more inconsistent golfer.

I measure myself by how many times I play within my buffer, if I'm expected to play better than it before I even hit a ball and my opposition isn't, well I'm on a hiding to nothing!

Not True, buffer for a cat 3 is 3 shots so you still get the same buffer and the 4 handicap has a one shot buffer.so is the 4 handicap as he is getting no shots. But as i said buffer is not a factor its matchplay. the 20 handicapper is only losing a % of his handicap where as the guy of 4 is losing the whole 100%

 

[patricks148]

But the 20 handicapper has still lost 6 shots to your 4.

which is the whole 100% of the handicap where the 20 is only losing 20%

 

[Foxholer]

I've just read all 12 pages of that and there's nothing there about BB, which is what this thread is about

While specifically relating to Singles, the stats in that document can simply be extrapolated to apply to BB!

It is quite reasonable/to be expected that BB/Pairs scores will increase as a result of the change. This is because a 16 handicap (or difference) player would only 'lose' 2 shots instead of the 4 they lost previously. Likewise, a 20-capper/difference would lose 2 as opposed to 5 and a 24-capper/difference 2 as opposed to 6 previously! The increase in scores/results simply reflects the above changes! Get used to it! As per that SGU report, the low-cappers have had the advantage for years! It's really only a case of the numbers (of low versus mid/high caps) involved that 'distorts' the results!

IMO, It should only be something to investigate when it's the same mid/high folk winning! Low cappers are statistically much more likely to be there or thereabouts! In my experience (and I'vre quite a few years of playing and/or running comps) the most likely winners, in mid-summer when handicaps are 'stable', will be in the 9-14 handicap range - though actually predicting (accurately) which one is virtually impossible!