90% versus 3/4

[Deleted member 16999]

Singles - full HC, no arguments from me. I don't understand why singles keeps getting mentioned.


In better ball and team competitions, I think the higher handicaps have an inbuilt advantage over lower handicaps which needs offsetting by reducing the handicaps by a percentage.

I will try to explain why I think that.

Let's use a scratch golfer and an 18 handicap.

Trying to keep the numbers simple let's say the 'expected' score for the scratch on a 360yd par 4 is 4, and the 18hc would be 5.

What do you think the expected score would be for each if they both played the hole twice and recorded the better of the 2.


If you think both 'expected' scores reduce by the same amount, what if they play the hole 3 times each, or 10 times, or 100 times?
There is never always going to be 1 stroke between the 2 expected scores, because a 2 for the low hc is way less likely than a 3 for the high hc.


The problem, is how much does the low hc's advantage (which is 1 stroke when they each play the hole once) reduce by when there are 2 bites at the cherry.


I've read that back and I'm not sure I've put my point across very well, but I hope it makes some sense.

I more than accept that on any given day the high handicapper will play well and win, but on average the better player will win through.

As an aside, isn't it the beauty of the game that we can discuss such varying abilities competeing with each other.

 

[patricks148]

And won 15-18 so wins 2 up

what about 1-4 then

 

[GreggerKBR]

i think you are missing what i'm saying. the 20 handicapper is only losing 20% of his handicap, but the 4 100% of his. as i keep saying buffer does not come in to it as its match play and the CSS/SSS doesn't make any difference either. its one person playing another.

its all about equalisation of handicaps so its more a level playing field, more shots means more of an advantage. after all a handicap is supposed to be a reflection of your best golf, not your consistent golf.

Just a thought - what is CONGU's definition of this...

"Throughout its history there have been regular revisions to the CONGU® handicapping system allwith the aim of assisting club members to have handicaps that truly reflect their playing ability"


So is your "ability" equitable to "your best"?

If so, I once shot -1. But my h/c has been >8 for many years...?

 

[Region3]

I more than accept that on any given day the high handicapper will play well and win, but on average the better player will win through.

As an aside, isn't it the beauty of the game that we can discuss such varying abilities competeing with each other.

My point wasn't intended to have anything to do with how well each player plays relative to handicap. Let's assume they both play bang on handicap.

Do you accept that if a scratch golfer plays a par 4 ten times and his average score is 3.3, then the 18hc playing the same hole ten times will have a lower expected score than 4.3?

This is for anyone btw. Somebody give me a good reason why I'm wrong.

 

[patricks148]

I haven't read all the thread but in terms of singles matchplay off full difference - I've played my last! Winter knockout and giving 31 shots and I played really well but have never felt so demotivated and disillusioned on a golf course. The 2 Par 3's I needed to hole in one just to get a half etc etc. There was nothing I could do to compete as she played better than her handicap suggested she could/should...lost it on the 16th at which stage I was 1 under handicap. The rights and wrongs are one thing but how demotivating it was for me was enough to say never again...singles off scratch or nowt.

yep must be pretty disheartening to be giving away that many shots, most Ive had to give is 23. we have a weighted system at the draw so you don't go up against a really high handicap until the 2nd or 3rd round anyway as cat1 at my club. by then i've usually been knocked out by the bandit 13 handicap:rofl:

 

[Deleted member 16999]

My point wasn't intended to have anything to do with how well each player plays relative to handicap. Let's assume they both play bang on handicap.

Do you accept that if a scratch golfer plays a par 4 ten times and his average score is 3.3, then the 18hc playing the same hole ten times will have a lower expected score than 4.3?

This is for anyone btw. Somebody give me a good reason why I'm wrong.

I would've thought over the ten times the scratch golfer will be better, no stats to back this up though.

 

[patricks148]

Just a thought - what is CONGU's definition of this...

"Throughout its history there have been regular revisions to the CONGU® handicapping system allwith the aim of assisting club members to have handicaps that truly reflect their playing ability"


So is your "ability" equitable to "your best"?

If so, I once shot -1. But my h/c has been >8 for many years...?

isn't that what the US system does. reflects the consistent score over 10 round, where as congu is a cut per comp score.

your -1 is irrelevant as you score is against the CSS/SSS and your handicap will reflect that

 

[Fish]

yep must be pretty disheartening to be giving away that many shots, most Ive had to give is 23. we have a weighted system at the draw so you don't go up against a really high handicap until the 2nd or 3rd round anyway as cat1 at my club. by then i've usually been knocked out by the bandit 13 handicap:rofl:

I think there are far more gringos around 12-15 than those above 18, I think those above 18 are genuinely trying to come down, unless there whining seniors, there are far more 12-15 quite happy where they are as they play far too well off those handicaps and clean up 😜

 

[Region3]

I would've thought over the ten times the scratch golfer will be better, no stats to back this up though.

Oh, no doubt the scratch will still score better on average. My argument it the difference will be less than 1 whole shot.

 

[Beezerk]

Do you accept that if a scratch golfer plays a par 4 ten times and his average score is 3.3, then the 18hc playing the same hole ten times will have a lower expected score than 4.3?

4.3 average for the 18 handicapper? No chance. His odd/rare par will probably be offset with doubles, trebles or worse. I'd expect the scratch player to be battering the flag with his 2nd shot 10 out of 10 times.

 

[Region3]

4.3 average for the 18 handicapper? No chance. His odd/rare par will probably be offset with doubles, trebles or worse. I'd expect the scratch player to be battering the flag with his 2nd shot 10 out of 10 times.

Sorry, not explained myself very well - again

A pair of scr hc's play a par 4 ten times. What would you expect their average better ball score would be?
Same question for a pair of 18 hc's?

 

[huds1475]

This reminds me of really bad meetings at work

 

[Beezerk]

Sorry, not explained myself very well - again

A pair of scr hc's play a par 4 ten times. What would you expect their average better ball score would be?
Same question for a pair of 18 hc's?

Good question, blimey!
Maybe around 3.2 for the scratch and 5 ish for the 18?
I'm basing it on the 18 on getting 4 pars, 6 bogies. May be a bit generous their mind lol.

Edit.
I managed to misread your post and have corrected now 😁

 

[fundy]

Good question, blimey!
Maybe around 3.2 for the scratch and 5 ish for the 18?
I'm basing it on the 18 on getting 4 pars, 6 bogies. May be a bit generous their mind lol.

Edit.
I managed to misread your post and have corrected now 😁

you play against some very different 18 handicappers to me if you think better ball they will average 5 on the easiest par 4 on the course lol, oh and better scratch golfers too!

taking our easiest par 4 (by SI) then I expect the numbers would be something like 3.5 and 4.3

 

[GreggerKBR]

isn't that what the US system does. reflects the consistent score over 10 round, where as congu is a cut per comp score.

your -1 is irrelevant as you score is against the CSS/SSS and your handicap will reflect that

My post was a response to something I considered incorrect - a misconception...

image: http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/images/misc/quote_icon.png

Originally Posted by patricks148image: [url]http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png

[/URL]
i think you are missing what i'm saying. the 20 handicapper is only losing 20% of his handicap, but the 4 100% of his. as i keep saying buffer does not come in to it as its match play and the CSS/SSS doesn't make any difference either. its one person playing another.

its all about equalisation of handicaps so its more a level playing field, more shots means more of an advantage. after all a handicap is supposed to be a reflection of your best golf, not your consistent golf.

Read more at http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/showthread.php?90216-90-versus-3-4/page13#eJTLMiXUBjVKqEw9.99

 

[Robobum]

Conclusive proof on this thread......

If you are a low handicap, it's unfair.

If you are a high handicap, it's all rosey! Show me the trophy!!!! 🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Conclusive proof on this thread......

If you are a low handicap, it's unfair.

If you are a high handicap, it's all rosey! Show me the trophy!!!! 🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆

:clap: :clap: :thup:

 

[patricks148]

My post was a response to something I considered incorrect - a misconception...

image: http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/images/misc/quote_icon.png

Originally Posted by patricks148image: [url]http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png

[/URL]
i think you are missing what i'm saying. the 20 handicapper is only losing 20% of his handicap, but the 4 100% of his. as i keep saying buffer does not come in to it as its match play and the CSS/SSS doesn't make any difference either. its one person playing another.

its all about equalisation of handicaps so its more a level playing field, more shots means more of an advantage. after all a handicap is supposed to be a reflection of your best golf, not your consistent golf.

Read more at http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/showthread.php?90216-90-versus-3-4/page13#eJTLMiXUBjVKqEw9.99

you were stating the handicap system we have in the UK reflects consistency... i'm not sure it does... for instance in the US if you start to go though a bad patch you will quickly raise your handicap well above the rate you would with the UK yes?

In the Uk you start playing badly say for 10 rounds on the trot and your handicap is 4.5 after those 10 rounds you are only going to be 1 shot higher, where as the US you could be 5 or even 6 shots higher, so the UK handicap reflects your best gold still not your worste

 

[Ross61]

Sorry, not explained myself very well - again

A pair of scr hc's play a par 4 ten times. What would you expect their average better ball score would be?
Same question for a pair of 18 hc's?

On an average par 4 I would expect the scratch pair to average about 3.4 and the 18 hcprs around 4.5 based on one double bogey, 4 bogies, 4 pars and a birdie.

 

[Region3]

you play against some very different 18 handicappers to me if you think better ball they will average 5 on the easiest par 4 on the course lol, oh and better scratch golfers too!

taking our easiest par 4 (by SI) then I expect the numbers would be something like 3.5 and 4.3

I was beginning to think no-one understood my reasoning. Thank you Mr. Probabilities man.

If 3.5 was right, then 75% would make the 18's 4.25 and 90% makes them 4.4