4BB Competition and Social Score

[D-S]

I understand that social scores are acceptable for WHS handicaps if the player abides by rules of golf, putts out, doesn't accept advice etc. if they are combined with a casual 4BB round with mates and/or swindle.
However, is it acceptable for a social score to be submitted if the player was playing in an official Club 4BB competition at the same time?
Also is there a reference to this in CONGU?

 

[rulefan]

I understand that social scores are acceptable for WHS handicaps if the player abides by rules of golf, putts out, doesn't accept advice etc. if they are combined with a casual 4BB round with mates and/or swindle.
However, is it acceptable for a social score to be submitted if the player was playing in an official Club 4BB competition at the same time?
Also is there a reference to this in CONGU?

The advice I have from England Golf is that it is acceptable in stroke play but not in matchplay.
To the best of my knowledge CONGU has not said anyting.

 

[D-S]

Thank you, do you know if EG has published this anywhere?

 

[jim8flog]

Thank you, do you know if EG has published this anywhere?

Guidance on the Rules

As per Rulesfan note this says playing a match when playing a stroke play not the other way round

G2.1/2 Scores When Stroke Play And Match Play Are Played Concurrently
The Rules of Golf do not expressly prohibit the playing of a match whilst concurrently playing in a stroke play competition, but the guidance in Committee Procedures 6C (12) discourages such practice. CONGU® concurs with this view and strongly recommends Committees to ensure that their Terms of the Competition make it clear if and when such practice may be permissible. If such practice is sanctioned, the Rules of the stroke play event must prevail in order for the score to be acceptable for handicapping purposes.

Rules of Handicapping

2.1/2 – Status of Scores Made When Match Play and Stroke Play
Formats are Played Concurrently
When a player competes in a match while also playing in a stroke play round and
both are authorized formats of play, the stroke play score is the score that should
be submitted for handicap purposes. The match play score should not be
submitted.

In future if Most Likely Score becomes acceptable then this is used for putts conceded. It is being trialled in Ireland.

 

[D-S]

My issue is really playing a social score for handicap purposes whilst concurrently playing in a Club 4BB strokeplay competition, I would like to know if there is something published that says that this is acceptable, obviously if everything is putted out.

 

[rulefan]

My issue is really playing a social score for handicap purposes whilst concurrently playing in a Club 4BB strokeplay competition, I would like to know if there is something published that says that this is acceptable, obviously if everything is putted out.

The situation is as I said in post #2. I have been advised by England Golf that a 'casual' handicap score may be returned when playing a 4BBB strokeplay round. Subject to the constraints you mentioned in your OP and pre-declaration of course.

 

[woofers]

From the England Golf website, WHS FAQ’s section:
Q: What formats of play are defined as acceptable for Handicap purposes?
A: Competition or social scores from Medal, Stableford, Par/Bogey and Max Score – as a single golfer. Team and pairs formats are currently not acceptable.

I know some guys who make up a regular 4 ball and play 4BBB matchplay but also submit general play cards for handicap at the same time, on the basis that “we always hole out”. I feel that they are wrong in doing so, as there will invariably be some advice between them at some stage. Am I wrong?

However from the posts above, it would appear that if they played 4BBB stroke play then the scores could be submitted for general play handicap purposes? Even if advice was exchanged ?

 

[rulie]

I think one has to think about what the WHS handicap index is and how it is determined - it is intended to represent the playing ability and is based on the best 8 scores of the player's last 20 scores. In the whole scheme of things, if one of those last 20 rounds was a 4BBB stroke play and the player had received some advice during that round, what is the probability that that round was in the best 8 of the last 20 differentials and that particular round significantly impacted the average differential of the best 8 differentials, then consider by how much it impacted the average and handicap index. Even 0.1 (doubtful) may not have changed the player's course handicap.
My opinion - don't sweat the inconsequential stuff, it's likely to get lost in the calculations/rounding.

 

[Colin L]

It's not even a given that receiving advice will result in a better score. It could be bum advice.

 

[rulefan]

I think one has to think about what the WHS handicap index is and how it is determined - it is intended to represent the playing ability and is based on the best 8 scores of the player's last 20 scores. In the whole scheme of things, if one of those last 20 rounds was a 4BBB stroke play and the player had received some advice during that round, what is the probability that that round was in the best 8 of the last 20 differentials and that particular round significantly impacted the average differential of the best 8 differentials, then consider by how much it impacted the average and handicap index. Even 0.1 (doubtful) may not have changed the player's course handicap.
My opinion - don't sweat the inconsequential stuff, it's likely to get lost in the calculations/rounding.

Play has to be according to the RoG. That means advice is verboten.

 

[rulie]

Play has to be according to the RoG. That means advice is verboten.

If 4BBB stroke play is a permitted score/format for handicap purposes then, imo, advice given between partners is permitted and does not make the score inadmissible. Might be splitting hairs here?

 

[woofers]

The situation is as I said in post #2. I have been advised by England Golf that a 'casual' handicap score may be returned when playing a 4BBB strokeplay round. Subject to the constraints you mentioned in your OP and pre-declaration of course.

Would it possible for you to publish this advice as the EG WHS FAQs suggest only play as a single player is acceptable.

 

[D-S]

The situation is as I said in post #2. I have been advised by England Golf that a 'casual' handicap score may be returned when playing a 4BBB strokeplay round. Subject to the constraints you mentioned in your OP and pre-declaration of course.

If you could publish this advice from England Golf it would be very helpful - then it would be definitive that social scores are acceptable if they have been played in a casual or formal 4BB competition.
As it stands from the EG FAQ’s quoted above, it is not and this is the only wording players can show to us when we querying this.

 

[rulefan]

I can't now find the old email so will have to contact EG again.

 

[D-S]

I can't now find the old email so will have to contact EG again.

That would be great if you could, thanks.

 

[Old Skier]

Our Comp Terms does not allow for different formats to be played within (official) comps.

 

[D-S]

Our Comp Terms does not allow for different formats to be played within (official) comps.

Would you allow a pre-registered social score if played in a 4BB official competition? Different formats singles strokeplay (social score) and 4BB (official comp).

 

[Old Skier]

Would you allow a pre-registered social score if played in a 4BB official competition? Different formats singles strokeplay (social score) and 4BB (official comp).

Nope

 

[rulie]

What is the definition of a "social score"?

 

[badgergm]

I think one has to think about what the WHS handicap index is and how it is determined - it is intended to represent the playing ability and is based on the best 8 scores of the player's last 20 scores. In the whole scheme of things, if one of those last 20 rounds was a 4BBB stroke play and the player had received some advice during that round, what is the probability that that round was in the best 8 of the last 20 differentials and that particular round significantly impacted the average differential of the best 8 differentials, then consider by how much it impacted the average and handicap index. Even 0.1 (doubtful) may not have changed the player's course handicap.
My opinion - don't sweat the inconsequential stuff, it's likely to get lost in the calculations/rounding.

I see this line of thinking all the time - ”it’s only one round, it won’t make much difference “. I dont understand it. What if, say, my friends and I agreed that we could take the ball out of divot holes on the fairway? That’s unlikely to make any difference over 20 rounds, get lost in the rounding, may only happen in a round that doesnt count anyway, etc, etc. Is that inconsequential?