4BB Competition and Social Score

[rulie]

I see this line of thinking all the time - ”it’s only one round, it won’t make much difference “. I dont understand it. What if, say, my friends and I agreed that we could take the ball out of divot holes on the fairway? That’s unlikely to make any difference over 20 rounds, get lost in the rounding, may only happen in a round that doesnt count anyway, etc, etc. Is that inconsequential?

That round would not be played by the Rules of golf and besides, is not equivalent to the current discussion about advice (which was clearly mentioned in the post you quoted).
From my previous post, "If 4BBB stroke play is a permitted score/format for handicap purposes then, imo, advice given between partners is permitted and does not make the score inadmissible." The "if" issue has not been resolved as yet; if it is not a permitted score/format, the point is moot.

 

[rulefan]

What is the definition of a "social score"?

It is classified as 'General Play' under the Rules of Handicapping Rule 2.1b
(ii) General Play. When an organized competition is not being contested, a score
is not acceptable for handicap purposes if the player:
- Breaches the Rules of Golf and the correct penalty is not applied under the Rules of Golf, or
- Deliberately ignores a Rule of Golf.

Where a player follows the provisions set down in a Model Local Rule, even when the Committee in charge of the course has not adopted that Model
Local Rule, the score may still be acceptable for handicap purposes. The same situation applies where a player is in breach of a Model Local Rule that has been adopted by the Committee.

Examples of situations relating to Model Local Rules where a score might be acceptable for handicap purposes include:
- A player has proceeded under the alternative option to the stroke and distance relief procedure, despite this Model Local Rule not being in effect, or
- The player has used a distance-measuring device despite the Model Local Rule prohibiting their use being in effect.

The final determination is at the discretion of the Committee, based on the circumstances.

 

[rulie]

It is classified as 'General Play' under the Rules of Handicapping Rule 2.1b
(ii) General Play. When an organized competition is not being contested, a score
is not acceptable for handicap purposes if the player:
- Breaches the Rules of Golf and the correct penalty is not applied under the Rules of Golf, or
- Deliberately ignores a Rule of Golf.

Where a player follows the provisions set down in a Model Local Rule, even when the Committee in charge of the course has not adopted that Model
Local Rule, the score may still be acceptable for handicap purposes. The same situation applies where a player is in breach of a Model Local Rule that has been adopted by the Committee.

Examples of situations relating to Model Local Rules where a score might be acceptable for handicap purposes include:
- A player has proceeded under the alternative option to the stroke and distance relief procedure, despite this Model Local Rule not being in effect, or
- The player has used a distance-measuring device despite the Model Local Rule prohibiting their use being in effect.

The final determination is at the discretion of the Committee, based on the circumstances.

Thank you. Imo, that's not the same as my view of a "social round", a round being played for fun and a social atmosphere (sometimes called a "hit and giggle"). Different strokes...different folks.

 

[rulefan]

Thank you. Imo, that's not the same as my view of a "social round", a round being played for fun and a social atmosphere (sometimes called a "hit and giggle"). Different strokes...different folks.

The term 'a social score' is not recognised by the rules so as Humpty Dumpty said 'it means whatever you want it to mean'

 

[Banchory Buddha]

The situation is as I said in post #2. I have been advised by England Golf that a 'casual' handicap score may be returned when playing a 4BBB strokeplay round. Subject to the constraints you mentioned in your OP and pre-declaration of course.

If it's a bounce game, but surely if you're playing in a club 4BBB then you can't also record a general play score? You can't play a match while playing a medal simultaneously, I see this as the same thing?

I'd not want my partner doing that if we were in a pair, it's a team game, but clearly if he was putting in a GP score, then he can't give or receive advice from his team mate.

 

[rulefan]

That would be great if you could, thanks.

I'm afraid the situation is rather fluid. CONGU and EG are now reconsidering their individual views.
A note confirming the situation will be sent to clubs and counties shortly but it seems likely that General Play scores will not be permitted when played with 4BBB. But that is not yet the official view.

 

[rulefan]

it's a team game, but clearly if he was putting in a GP score, then he can't give or receive advice from his team mate.

See post #10

 

[Banchory Buddha]

See post #10

Missed it, sorry. 100% agree

 

[badgergm]

If it's a bounce game, but surely if you're playing in a club 4BBB then you can't also record a general play score? You can't play a match while playing a medal simultaneously, I see this as the same thing?

I'd not want my partner doing that if we were in a pair, it's a team game, but clearly if he was putting in a GP score, then he can't give or receive advice from his team mate.

You can play a singles match at same time as medal. It’s discouraged but not forbidden - follow stroke play rules.

 

[Old Skier]

You can play a singles match at same time as medal. It’s discouraged but not forbidden - follow stroke play rules.

Unless your rules for competitions state otherwise.

 

[badgergm]

Unless your rules for competitions state otherwise.

Yes. I bet many dont though, relying on previous rule of golf. I reckon it’s still one of the lesser known rule changes.

 

[rosecott]

Just received from our County Handicap Adviser:

Dear All,
I have the definitive answer to a much asked question, as confirmed by CONGU and the R&A (so both Rules of Handicapping and Rules of Golf).

Scores from a team competition, such as a 4BBB or AmAm, or when individual scores are combined for a team score and the players are playing together, can not count as an acceptable score for HI. This applies even if the player has holed out on every hole. This is because the Rules for team competitions are not in alignment with the Rules for individual scores (for example, asking for or receiving advice).
Such scores may, however, be used to support any general play reduction required. As was always the case, general play means general (not just an odd score where the player had a day in the sun). But repeat winners must be dealt with to maintain the integrity of the payer, the club, and the handicap system.

 

[rulefan]

Just received from our County Handicap Adviser:

Dear All,
I have the definitive answer to a much asked question, as confirmed by CONGU and the R&A (so both Rules of Handicapping and Rules of Golf).

Scores from a team competition, such as a 4BBB or AmAm, or when individual scores are combined for a team score and the players are playing together, can not count as an acceptable score for HI. This applies even if the player has holed out on every hole. This is because the Rules for team competitions are not in alignment with the Rules for individual scores (for example, asking for or receiving advice).
Such scores may, however, be used to support any general play reduction required. As was always the case, general play means general (not just an odd score where the player had a day in the sun). But repeat winners must be dealt with to maintain the integrity of the payer, the club, and the handicap system.

See post #26 re England Golf and CONGU

However, the R&A's advice seems to be a little odd as Four ball match and strokeplay scores are permitted in certain jurisdictions (eg USA). Authorized formats of play are are at the discretion of the national authority. In fact Ireland is trialling the concept on behalf of CONGU.

 

[D-S]

So I believe we can now take it as read that ‘social scores’ are unacceptable for handicap if played whist in a club 4BB strokeplay competitio.
Now the question is, are they acceptable when they are played in a non-official competition? e.g. a swindle/roll up who usually plays some sort of team format - 2 out of 3 or 4 Bowmaker etc.
We are being told that if it is a singles ‘competition’, even if unofficial, that scores should be used for handicap. So if these are deemed as ‘proper’ competitions, should unofficial 4BB or team competitions be also be considered important enough so that singles rounds played concurrently are not acceptable for handicap?

 

[woofers]

At the end of the day, most of time, no one knows what goes on in a “general play” round. It is all a matter of trust. If 4 guys say they‘re all submitting ”general play“ scores, but decide to have a 4BBB matchplay or 4BBB strokeplay, all putts holed, running concurrently, who’s to say they can’t. I suspect it’s happening week in, week out.
Those who know the rules regarding advice, (rule 10), be it club selection, line of putt, alignment, swing speed etc etc realise that technically if any of the advice is given / received, a 2 shot penalty should be applied to the “general play” score, I really don’t think that is happening. Nor do I believe that the likely outcome of the 4BBB is not having an influence on the “general play” round.
Anyway, who is gaining from this ? The “general play” score may be recorded as lower than the players own capabilities due to the advice received which ultimately could result a lower handicap which in turn disadvantages the player in a proper singles competition.
Although, conversely, if the general penalty were applied each time advice was received a players handicap could be increased advantageously ? (subject to soft and hard caps of course).

 

[woofers]

Following on from above, 4 players A,B,C and D decide to submit individual “general play” scores, then pair up as A&B and C&D, for a 4BBB matchplay game concurrently. They putt out on every hole. But if B gives A any advice the players should add 2 strokes to their “general play” score each time, although it’s allowable for the matchplay, correct?
The next day, all 4 meet again but this time only A and C are submitting “general play” scores, B and D are caddying respectively. On this occasion, the same advice B gives A is allowable and doesn’t result in the general penalty for A, whereas the day before the same advice incurred a 2 stroke penalty. Correct ?
Logical?

 

[D-S]

Have we heard from EG or CONGU officially on this yet? I haven’t seen anything but may have missed it.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

At the end of the day, most of time, no one knows what goes on in a “general play” round. It is all a matter of trust. If 4 guys say they‘re all submitting ”general play“ scores, but decide to have a 4BBB matchplay or 4BBB strokeplay, all putts holed, running concurrently, who’s to say they can’t. I suspect it’s happening week in, week out.
Those who know the rules regarding advice, (rule 10), be it club selection, line of putt, alignment, swing speed etc etc realise that technically if any of the advice is given / received, a 2 shot penalty should be applied to the “general play” score, I really don’t think that is happening. Nor do I believe that the likely outcome of the 4BBB is not having an influence on the “general play” round.
Anyway, who is gaining from this ? The “general play” score may be recorded as lower than the players own capabilities due to the advice received which ultimately could result a lower handicap which in turn disadvantages the player in a proper singles competition.
Although, conversely, if the general penalty were applied each time advice was received a players handicap could be increased advantageously ? (subject to soft and hard caps of course).

^^^^^^^^^^^^every word of this

 

[wjemather]

Have we heard from EG or CONGU officially on this yet? I haven’t seen anything but may have missed it.

#32

 

[woofers]

#32

Unfortunately that’s not from EG or CONGU as asked, and referred to in #26.