4BB Competition and Social Score

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

My regular Saturday rollup is a WHS qualifier. In our groups of four we usually also play a little ‘friendly’ 4BBB match. We always hold out (so no gimmes in the 4BBB match though we could and then hole out - but that’s confusing) and in any pair we avoid giving each other any advice.

 

[woofers]

If intending to submit scores for handicapping, players must only play, and follow the rules of, individual strokeplay.

They may enjoy a pairs/team side game, but they cannot use any of the special rules that apply to pairs/team formats.

So this post would indicate that provided the player(s) in a pairs / team game play by the rules of individual stroke play, they can submit their score for handicapping, which is contrary to the spirit of the Individual Strokeplay rule 2.1? Of course it negates the benefits of being able to play as a team / pair in regard to giving and receiving advice.

Personally I only submit cards from individual strokeplay as I believe that is the intent of the rule, however I know of players who will argue that they are playing “an individual, general play round” as they are “playing by the rules of golf”. It may make it uncomfortable for me if I join them in a team event, and awkward in terms of being able to say anything construed as advice, but as they are able to register, record and verify the rounds on the EG App amongst themselves, there is very little I can do.

 

[woofers]

You mean during a competitive am-am? If I was the teams behind I'd be hoofing them up the arse for that. Absolute joke, total disrespect to the rest of the field.

I agree, and in terms of ‘holing out’ / speed of play, they could input a net double bogey if need be.

 

[wjemather]

So this post would indicate that provided the player(s) in a pairs / team game play by the rules of individual stroke play, they can submit their score for handicapping, which is contrary to the spirit of the Individual Strokeplay rule 2.1? Of course it negates the benefits of being able to play as a team / pair in regard to giving and receiving advice.

Personally I only submit cards from individual strokeplay as I believe that is the intent of the rule, however I know of players who will argue that they are playing “an individual, general play round” as they are “playing by the rules of golf”. It may make it uncomfortable for me if I join them in a team event, and awkward in terms of being able to say anything construed as advice, but as they are able to register, record and verify the rounds on the EG App amongst themselves, there is very little I can do.

It is important to be clear. They must play individual strokeplay. They must not play a pairs/team format. They may however use their individual scores in a pairs/team game/bet.

As an example, our county championship is an individual strokeplay event. There is also a team element with the 3-player aggregate counting for the club score. This does not affect the status of the event for handicapping.

 

[rulefan]

It is important to be clear. They must play individual strokeplay. They must not play a pairs/team format. They may however use their individual scores in a pairs/team game/bet.

As an example, our county championship is an individual strokeplay event. There is also a team element with the 3-player aggregate counting for the club score. This does not affect the status of the event for handicapping.

Just to clarify - the 3 players are each playing in 3 separate groups.

 

[wjemather]

Just to clarify - the 3 players are each playing in 3 separate groups.

I'm sure that ideally each group would be made up of players from different clubs but this doesn't always happen, especially if the startsheet gets disrupted by withdrawals after publication. This year, two players from our clubs #2 team ended up in the same group; there were three or four other clubs with two players in the same group, but I'm not sure if they were also entered in the team competition.

 

[rulefan]

I'm sure that ideally each group would be made up of players from different clubs but this doesn't always happen, especially if the startsheet gets disrupted by withdrawals after publication. This year, two players from our clubs #2 team ended up in the same group; there were three or four other clubs with two players in the same group, but I'm not sure if they were also entered in the team competition.

Ah, I see. Our county champ is only individual and as the second 36 holes are 'seeded' it is possible for club mates to be playing in the same group. But we have a separate 7 division county Club Championship which runs through the season comprising 3 man teams with each team's players in different groups.

 

[Old Skier]

CONGU have ruled that scores from 4BBB or teams types events are not acceptable at all even if pre-registered

You can publish this as many times as you like but you will it seems still have those that are going to ignore this and carry on as they seem to be doing now. What other “rules” they will decide to ignore is unknown.

 

[rulefan]

You can publish this as many times as you like but you will it seems still have those that are going to ignore this and carry on as they seem to be doing now. What other “rules” they will decide to ignore is unknown.

I have no problem with this (outside rules considerations) as they are probably playing for a good 'team' result with a good score, thereby reducing their handicap. Vanity cappers are a bonus for me to play .

 

[badgergm]

I agree, and in terms of ‘holing out’ / speed of play, they could input a net double bogey if need be.

But this would be against the principle that you should always try your hardest when a score counting for handicap.

 

[woofers]

But this would be against the principle that you should always try your hardest when a score counting for handicap.

I probably didn’t phrase my post very well, what I meant was that after a certain number of shots the requirement to ’hole out’ could be negated by recording a net double bogey thereby reducing the time spent waiting for 7’s and 8’s etc.

 

[woofers]

I see that EG have added to their website guidance on acceptable scores, making the point that it’s “individual formats only“ and “a score from an unauthorised format will not be acceptable under any circumstances”.
https://www.englandgolf.org/wp-cont...issions-for-Handicap-Purposes-002-Branded.pdf

I’ll ask again, does anyone KNOW WHY scores from 4BBB aren’t acceptable, other than EG saying they aren’t?
(In the same document they say “scores MUST are pre-registered” but then go on to say a “committee may accept a score that was not pre-registered” !! Surely it should be one or the other?)
Anyway, as there is no way of policing the scores being submitted by the EG App, why don’t they just include 4BBB General Play as acceptable? It’s probably the most popular format played each weekend, and would no doubt tick some EG corporate boxes / goals of “growing the game” and “players with handicaps”.

 

[IanM]

I’ll ask again, does anyone KNOW WHY scores from 4BBB aren’t acceptable, other than EG saying they aren’t?

There are things allowed in 4BBB, that are not permitted in singles..... There are also (non penalty) things that impact your choice of shot positively and negatively) ...and etiquette differences.

E.g.

• Playing partner giving you advice, fine in 4BBB, but a penalty in singles play.
• Going out of turn to support the team score.
• Being able to have a "free go" at the hole (or even lagging the putt to protect your personal score) once your partner has holed out.
• Its good etiquette to pick up when you cannot better your partners score... holing unnecessary putts for your "notional" singles card slows play and is a pain for your opponents

I am sure the Rules-Folk will give a better answer than this, but in essence, there are plenty of reasons why it isn't!

 

[woofers]

There are things allowed in 4BBB, that are not permitted in singles..... There are also (non penalty) things that impact your choice of shot positively and negatively) ...and etiquette differences.

E.g.

• Playing partner giving you advice, fine in 4BBB, but a penalty in singles play. But OK for a caddie to give you advice in singles play which is acceptable
• Going out of turn to support the team score. Ready golf?
• Being able to have a "free go" at the hole (or even lagging the putt to protect your personal score) once your partner has holed out. I suggest this would have minimal impact on handicap indices, it may happen on a couple of occasions in a round.
• Its good etiquette to pick up when you cannot better your partners score... holing unnecessary putts for your "notional" singles card slows play and is a pain for your opponents I agree, but lot of players don’t understand or apply that as they want to hole out to “keep my eye in” etc etc

I am sure the Rules-Folk will give a better answer than this, but in essence, there are plenty of reasons why it isn't! I hope someone can give something definitive because although I think I can explain the WHS to most members / players (and I think it is a good system), I can’t explain why 4BBB isn’t acceptable with any conviction.

Thanks, my views in Red.

 

[Deleted member 30522]

I’ll ask again, does anyone KNOW WHY scores from 4BBB aren’t acceptable, other than EG saying they aren’t?
(In the same document they say “scores MUST are pre-registered” but then go on to say a “committee may accept a score that was not pre-registered” !! Surely it should be one or the other?)
Anyway, as there is no way of policing the scores being submitted by the EG App, why don’t they just include 4BBB General Play as acceptable? It’s probably the most popular format played each weekend, and would no doubt tick some EG corporate boxes / goals of “growing the game” and “players with handicaps”.

But if it's not a competitive 4BBB then there's nothing stopping you putting in a GP score. Just make it clear to the rest of your 4 ball that you'll be doing so and therefore have to hole out every hole, and your partner doesn't provide any advice.

The rule is there to stop an official 4BBB being used to count for h'cap, because obviously in those instances you are going to share info with your partner

 

[Deleted member 30522]

Thanks, my views in Red.

Re the last point you made, woofers has just given a long list of explanations, that's it right there, if you can't repeat that then that's really your issue to deal with. He's absolutely spot on.

 

[D-S]

There are different tactics involved in 4BB than in individual strokeplay. For example your partner gets a shot on a hole and puts it in the middle of the fairway, you take on a far riskier tee shot than you would normally, similarly with shots around the green, if one of you is safe then the other can afford to try and hole a shot that otherwise would be lagged or played conservatively. Your play in 4BB should be heavily influenced by what your partner has done or how he is playing - it is a team format.
How many people have a completely different ability level with the crutch of a partner than playing by yourself where the game and pressure is completely different.
I am not saying that your play in 4BB is not reflective of your skill level in that format but for many it certainly is not reflective of their ability in individual strokeplay.

 

[IanM]

Thanks, my views in Red.

- Caddy isnt a player so that's why!
- Ready gollf? Fair enough in stroke play!
- Minimal impact is still impact! And it might be a massive impact!! :
- I agree, but lot of players don’t understand or apply that as they want to hole out to “keep my eye in” etc etc Not if you pick their ball up and throw it back! Ok, no one objects to the practice putt after the partner has holed out... but just imagine if player A has hit his 2nd shot to 2 feet, while their partner is chopping down the hole "cos I am putting a card in"


I hope someone can give something definitive because although I think I can explain the WHS to most members / players (and I think it is a good system), I can’t explain why 4BBB isn’t acceptable with any conviction. 4BBB is not singles stoke play. That is pretty definitive.

 

[woofers]

But if it's not a competitive 4BBB then there's nothing stopping you putting in a GP score. Just make it clear to the rest of your 4 ball that you'll be doing so and therefore have to hole out every hole, and your partner doesn't provide any advice.

The rule is there to stop an official 4BBB being used to count for h'cap, because obviously in those instances you are going to share info with your partner

Thanks for that, obviously I wasn’t reading the official communication that way, hence my confusion, but I would be happy to adopt the position you have outlined.

 

[doublebogey7]

There are different tactics involved in 4BB than in individual strokeplay. For example your partner gets a shot on a hole and puts it in the middle of the fairway, you take on a far riskier tee shot than you would normally, similarly with shots around the green, if one of you is safe then the other can afford to try and hole a shot that otherwise would be lagged or played conservatively. Your play in 4BB should be heavily influenced by what your partner has done or how he is playing - it is a team format.
How many people have a completely different ability level with the crutch of a partner than playing by yourself where the game and pressure is completely different.
I am not saying that your play in 4BB is not reflective of your skill level in that format but for many it certainly is not reflective of their ability in individual strokeplay.

Yet our 4 ball handicap is based solely on out ability in singles strokeplay. Surely if we to have one single handicap it ought to be based on all the scores from the miriad of formats in which that handicap will be used.