World Handicap System

[rulefan]

Just to be clear, I can't understand the idea that Special treatment of Tournament scores will not be continued in the US yet the implication from an earlier post is that the R&A are considering only competition scores being included here where currently Supplementary scores are allowed for all but Cat 1. Just makes very little sense if the goal is to make handicaps around the world be directly comparable.

What I meant by 'special treatment' was that currently under USGA tournament scores have a higher value and remain in the counting scores longer that non tournament scores. Note that not all competitions are designated as 'Tournaments'.
It's in the USGA handicap manual but I must warn you it is very complicated and is never (or rarely) done manually.

A "tournament score" (T-Score) is a score made in a competition organized and conducted by the Committee in charge of the competition. The competition must identify a winner(s) based on a stipulated round(s), and must be played under the Rules of Golf.
The Committee in charge of the competition must announce in advance whether the score is to be designated as a Tournament Score. Not all club competitions qualify to be posted as Tournament Scores. For example, club events that are routine events such as daily, weekly, or monthly play days should not be designated as Tournament Scores.

T hey would include eg Club Championships, Board comps perhaps, County and National level comps

 

[rulefan]

If from today I play to scratch every single time I step onto the tee it'll take me 27 comps for my handicap to reflect that ability. That, to me, seems like a system that can't cope with a fairly rapid improvement in ability.

That's why (competent) handicap committees will still be required.

 

[rulefan]

So separate male/female course ratings and some way to convert handicaps for mixed comps? i.e. same as now but using slope rather than SSS?

Yes.

 

[Nosevi]

What I meant by 'special treatment' was that currently under USGA tournament scores have a higher value and remain in the counting scores longer that non tournament scores. Note that not all competitions are designated as 'Tournaments'.
It's in the USGA handicap manual but I must warn you it is very complicated and is never (or rarely) done manually.

Ok, so tournament scores will be counted the same as social scores in the US....... and their social scores will be counted the same as Supplementary sores here (ie must be pre-declared?). And there’ll be no Cat 1,2, 3 etc and so no restriction on anyone entering as many Supplementary scores as they see fit?

Is that about the size of it?

 

[Nosevi]

Thing is, youre criticising a whole system based on a very extreme example. Im not the systems biggest fan but since the introduction of ESRs most handicaps catch up pretty quickly, its only the rare example of someone who improves very quickly once a cat 1 that doesnt, and there are very few of them around (and most of them soon are more concerned with scratch comps anyway).

If youre that concerned about your handicap and want to get it down, play a handful of comps, prove it should be much lower, then write a letter to your club and/or county, if youre genuinely off that wrong a handicap they should reassess it

Dont forget, every one else that low got there based on the same system!

Just to be clear I'm not totally criticising the current system but others are dubious about the system set to come in which merely shows your potential scoring ability now ............ which is surely what a handicap is supposed to do.

As I said, for those later on in years and whose ability may be quickly deserting them the current system often doesn't do that. Having an arbitrary 28 maximum handicap for men (although that has just changed), basically saying unless you're that good you have no place in competitions, seems pretty non-inclusive coming into the sport as an 'outsider'. My situation is a little unusual but it demonstrates that if you get to Cat 1 and are improving when you do, the fact that you can't put in supplementary scores, the fact the ESR can't be applied to you, these to me say a low handicap is treated as a 'badge of honour' - something you need to grind down to over the years rather than merely a reflection of your current scoring potential.

I suppose I don't see any downside in the system set to come in (from what I understand of it). I don't think the course will be littered with people suddenly deciding they'll put in every round as a supplementary score just because the maths has changed. I don't think having to tap in 2 footers will dramatically slow up play. I don't think a system that merely exactly reflects your current scoring potential is a bad thing. But we'll see

 

[patricks148]

No, you're not missing anything. I hit a 5 handicap in 2 years from initial handicap having had to give up Rugby due to injury and sort of found I had a talent for golf. I'm actually a 5.0 handicap but having put in some work over last autumn and winter (I have an indoor swing studio and launch monitor which Bobmac has used) my last 50 odd rounds say I'm playing to about scratch. I'm Cat 1 so can't put in supplementary cards and in comps every shot I play below handicap drops me 0.1 of a shot. So if I play to scratch next time out I'll be a 4.5. then a 4.1 . Now I just drop 0.4 for a scratch round - 3.7, 3.3 - now it's 0.3 - 3.0, 2.7, 2.4 - now 0.2 - 2.2, 2.2, 2.0, 1.8, 1.6, 1.4 - now 0.1 cut for each scratch round - 1.3, 1.2, 1.1, 1.0, 0.9, 0.8, 0.7, 0.6, 0.5, 0.4, 0.3, 0.2, 0.1, 0.0.

If from today I play to scratch every single time I step onto the tee it'll take me 27 comps for my handicap to reflect that ability. That, to me, seems like a system that can't cope with a fairly rapid improvement in ability.

plenty of others get to scratch and better in the same system. if you are only playing 10 comps that's part of the problem for a start. why only 10?

if you are good enough you will get down simple as. At the moment my club have a load of juniors who have all gone from above cat1 to scratch and even plus figures during the last year. my advice would be to play more comps

 

[jim8flog]

Although I have not actually worked out any figures, one of the things I like is that it would appear that the player getting worse with age etc will get to their true handicap a lot quicker.

No more handicap committee members who cannot see the tree in the woods and go by reputation rather than the actual scores in front of them.

 

[Nosevi]

plenty of others get to scratch and better in the same system. if you are only playing 10 comps that's part of the problem for a start. why only 10?

if you are good enough you will get down simple as. At the moment my club have a load of juniors who have all gone from above cat1 to scratch and even plus figures during the last year. my advice would be to play more comps

Doesn’t matter much, was just using myself as a cat 1 as an example, but I often can’t get to the course on a weekend, but practice mainly on week days. Not everyone works a Monday to Friday job with weekends when the vast majority of comps are on free.

I suppose my comments were just based on the fact I personally think the new system will cater for all far better.

 

[Nosevi]

Although I have not actually worked out any figures, one of the things I like is that it would appear that the player getting worse with age etc will get to their true handicap a lot quicker.

No more handicap committee members who cannot see the tree in the woods and go by reputation rather than the actual scores in front of them.

+1 Totally agree

 

[Deleted member 15344]

It’s quite simple how cat 1 get to scratch - they play in lots of Opens where the standard scratches allow the guys to come down a lot quicker than just playing in Home comps

 

[pinberry]

plenty of others get to scratch and better in the same system. if you are only playing 10 comps that's part of the problem for a start. why only 10?

if you are good enough you will get down simple as. At the moment my club have a load of juniors who have all gone from above cat1 to scratch and even plus figures during the last year. my advice would be to play more comps

If you are a junior, you could do that. I'm 34, have a job and a family. Last year I plated 12 comps and got down from 1.5 to 0.7. I simply don't have the time to play 30 comps a year. I practice at evenings, indoor and play the seldom 9 holes at evenings in summer. Yet, I'm currently much better than my 0.7 implies. Under the new system I would be playing +1 as the last 12 comps have been that much better.

However, having done a few analysis etc. at the end of the day this new systems will be very similar to what we currently have.

 

[Nosevi]

It’s quite simple how cat 1 get to scratch - they play in lots of Opens where the standard scratches allow the guys to come down a lot quicker than just playing in Home comps

Best I do that then, if I want my handicap to come down a little quicker. Thanks

My comments were based on the fact the new system should reflect everyone’s current ability. Rapidly improving, going the other way, able to play at weekends, not often able to, illness/injury effected........... it really won’t matter. In theory at least it looks like the new system will just show where everyone is right now and surely that can only be a good thing.

 

[Nosevi]

If you are a junior, you could do that. I'm 34, have a job and a family. Last year I plated 12 comps and got down from 1.5 to 0.7. I simply don't have the time to play 30 comps a year. I practice at evenings, indoor and play the seldom 9 holes at evenings in summer. Yet, I'm currently much better than my 0.7 implies.

Kind of my point only put in a more succinct way. I just think the new system will work much the same for those who the current system works well for yet work better for those it doesn't. Could be wrong but nothing I've read so far makes me think I will be. Time will tell.

 

[duncan mackie]

Ok, so tournament scores will be counted the same as social scores in the US....... and their social scores will be counted the same as Supplementary sores here (ie must be pre-declared?). And there’ll be no Cat 1,2, 3 etc and so no restriction on anyone entering as many Supplementary scores as they see fit?

Is that about the size of it?

That's what has been posted!

On your comment on CONGU, it's slight disingenuous to use exactly scr (then bring -2 scores into your average comparison!) but in any event you would go 5.0 4.5 3.1 2.8 2.5 2.2 2.0 ie in 6 rounds you would be off 2.0 at which point I agree that from that point only scoring 2, then 1, under each time will make for slow progress to 0.0 if you don't shoot scores under level.

One thing that will come out of the change is the bubble at 5 under CONGU - I expect to see an increase of those at 3 and 4 and a reduction of those at 5.

 

[duncan mackie]

However, having done a few analysis etc. at the end of the day this new systems will be very similar to what we currently have.

I agree, as illustrated by those who have run their own and having run a number of handicap records through. Without knowing the details of the stabilising factor they will include it's impossible to be able to know the impact on improving, or going out, other than to say that they will tend towards the way CONGU calls currently work as well.

All that left then is that we will have handicap index applied to course and slope index for course and tee each time we play to give us a playing handicap for that occassion against par....instead of a handicap and playing against SSS - Well people will get used to it eventually!

 

[Nosevi]

That's what has been posted!

On your comment on CONGU, it's slight disingenuous to use exactly scr (then bring -2 scores into your average comparison!) but in any event you would go 5.0 4.5 3.1 2.8 2.5 2.2 2.0 ie in 6 rounds you would be off 2.0 at which point I agree that from that point only scoring 2, then 1, under each time will make for slow progress to 0.0 if you don't shoot scores under level.

One thing that will come out of the change is the bubble at 5 under CONGU - I expect to see an increase of those at 3 and 4 and a reduction of those at 5.

Ok, perhaps I was overstating the case a little

I agree with the last comment, simply because of the restrictions currently placed on Cat 1 players that don't apply to others.

Still think the new system will generally be better at reflecting people's current scoring potential and once people have used it for a while and it becomes the norm most of the fears about slow play etc will be shown to not be an issue.

 

[duncan mackie]

Ok, perhaps I was overstating the case a little

I agree with the last comment, simply because of the restrictions placed on Cat 1 players that don't apply to others.

Still think the new system will generally be better at reflecting people's current scoring potential and once people have used it for a while and it becomes the norm most of the fears about slow play etc will be shown to not be an issue.

Regarding the last bit, I would hope so as that has always been the fundamental difference between the underlying aspects of the USGA and CONGU systems. The former focusing on form and the latter heavily weighted to proven capability. I can still see strong arguments for both sides, and middle ground is a fudge rather than a compromise to both.

 

[ciel-bleu]

Currently I can't play comps in the UK because I don't possess a CONGU handicap. If this change means I can use my EGA index to enter the odd comp when I'm visiting then that's great!:whoo:

 

[Crazyface]

Not sure why you think that when this system has been in place in the USA for years.

Sure it has, but after reading some of the posts of here it all conkers. Players only putting cards in when it suits them. Sure it works!!!

 

[patricks148]

Currently I can't play comps in the UK because I don't possess a CONGU handicap. If this change means I can use my EGA index to enter the odd comp when I'm visiting then that's great!:whoo:

this is interesting, so will people who are not members of Clubs in the UK be able to play Qual comps?

couple of guys i know who have US handicaps currently have a Congu one as well, but they are members of UK clubs, but what if you aren't?