Women's safety

[harpo_72]

The police have to intervene, if they walked away it would be mob rule .. sorry but poor behaviour is not tolerated sitting down and discussing doesn’t stop the behaviour or walking away won’t stop the behaviour.
The vigil was a pretty short sighted strategy given the Covid situation.. there are other ways of dealing with this.
One solution could be to ask to pay voluntary tax if you feel unsafe to increase police numbers... ( that will set everyone off ?) or ask universities to pay for safety of the streets .. got some blinding suggestions.. Amazon to fund the police force so they can deliver safely ( getting almost gangster like here..)

 

[funkycoldmedina]

Indeed, and quite ironic.

A lot of this has stemmed from Baroness Jones suggestion that men should be curfewed in order to prevent these sort of crimes against women, in light of the suggestion that women stay off the streets in that area for their own safety, and the predictable outrage. At the time that suggestion was made, the initial stages of the investigation, the police did not know who or what they were dealing with apart from the fact that they or it represented a danger to women. Initial first safety step; suggest to the potential victims that they do not put themselves in harm's way. Solid, sensible advice at that stage of the investigation, and not so much of a hardship at the time in my opinion, given that the leisure industry is shut & we are supposedly in lockdown. As someone else said, if you've got a shark eating swimmers, don't swim in the sea because it's your right, change your exercise habits until the problem is dealt with. Instead of accepting that advice in the spirit in which it was intended, it has been seized upon as further evidence of women as second class citizens and turned into a political football. As a long term solution to the issue, telling women to keep off the streets is a wholly unacceptable solution and I'd join the march protesting about it; as a short term solution to the immediate problem I don't have an issue with it, and if there was something that made me more likely to be a victim of crime I'd be happy in the short term to take myself out of harm's way; I've done it for long enough to avoid a virus.

As to the solution, first we have to address the problem, and what, or possibly more pertinently who, exactly is the problem?

We know very little about this case apart from the name of the victim & the alleged perpetrator. However the reports of this crime that I have seen are all at this stage missing something; any suggestion of a link between the victim and the alleged offender. This would appear to be a stranger attack, and all the narrative I have seen infers how dangerous and unsafe women are on the streets and in public at the hands of strangers and what needs to be done in terms of new laws, bobbies on the beat, etc. I would urge you to research the statistics from the ONS to see exactly what risk strangers present to women, compared to the risk from partners, ex-partners, family members and other known acquaintances. This is not a stranger issue; it is a societal issue that is so deep-rooted that it will never go away without a major societal shift in parenting, education and awareness. I'm not going to pretend I know the answer, it will take a better mind than mine, but I do not believe the answer lies in knee jerk reactions to this incident however tragic and unacceptable it is.

Baroness Jones has stated that her suggestion wasn't serious but was meant to shine a light on what women are advised to do in these situations, it was to stimulate discussion. To move away from this particular case the discussion needs to be about how we make women feel safer in general which is clearly a big issue.

 

[PNWokingham]

The scrotes who attack women and hurt them, both indoors and outdoors, are not talking about it. They probably don't even know, and certainly don't care,
that we are talking about it.
This problem needs action, proper action by legislators and Courts, not by light waving lawbreakers putting people's lives at greater risk from Covid.

And, btw, the "regulations at short notice not subject...."?
I think you'll find the laws were passed by Parliament.
IIRC, presented on Monday and voted on Wednesday.

that is the nail and the head. In any situation like this, the large majority of decent, law abiding people from the "castigated" large group that is called out by the "jump on the bandwaggon with often stupid and overgeneralised ideas" is never going to work. The problem people here will never engage and never care. We have to focus on sensible advice so "humans" restrict the potential to be exposed to teh situation, look for beefing up awareness in everyone who will listen about potential harm, improve street lighting, get much tougher on violent crime and lock people up for a lot longer, reform laws that aid the police and courts - and put more bobbies on the beae, especially bringing back tons more community police that can engage and get to know the public in all areas - that will lead to be better information and in turn better segregated and specialsed approaches of policing in different areas. And get rid of the elephant in the room that makes talking about certain problems politically impossible

 

[Tashyboy]

Ave said it for years, there is a part of society that is sick. This week womens safety is in the spotlight, and rightly so. We have had BLM due to racism, and rightly so. But the list goes on and on. How many children have been abused in care homes. Priests abusing children. Actresses being abused in exchange for roles. Politicians abusing kids. Saville, Maxwell, Glitter, Wests, Epstein, etc etc etc.
On a day that is a anniversary of the shocking events of happened at Dunblane, there is still a part of society that has no respect for people of any colour, age or sex.

Watching the box last night and it looks like there’s a programme on the telly soon. I thinks it’s about the sexual abuse to young footballers. Add that to my list

 

[PNWokingham]

All cops are bastards.

and the ironic thing is that a lot of the same people spouting the "all men solutions" to this tragic situation here would also support BLM, who want to defund the police

 

[funkycoldmedina]

and the ironic thing is that a lot of the same people spouting the "all men solutions" to this tragic situation here would also support BLM, who want to defund the police

And it's made political?

 

[Doon frae Troon]

I wonder if it occu

The police have to intervene, if they walked away it would be mob rule .. sorry but poor behaviour is not tolerated sitting down and discussing doesn’t stop the behaviour or walking away won’t stop the behaviour.
The vigil was a pretty short sighted strategy given the Covid situation.. there are other ways of dealing with this.
One solution could be to ask to pay voluntary tax if you feel unsafe to increase police numbers... ( that will set everyone off ?) or ask universities to pay for safety of the streets .. got some blinding suggestions.. Amazon to fund the police force so they can deliver safely ( getting almost gangster like here..)

The police did not intervene in George Square, Glasgow last week, and that was just some numpty football fans celebrating.
I wonder if those attending the vigil were aware that their actions could lead to the death of London residents from Covid, probably not I would imagine.
So the whole concept of saving women's lives was lost on them.

 

[Rlburnside]

Watching the box last night and it looks like there’s a programme on the telly soon. I thinks it’s about the sexual abuse to young footballers. Add that to my list

Yes the list does go on and on the owners of your club come from a country where domestic violence is legal.

 

[Blue in Munich]

Baroness Jones has stated that her suggestion wasn't serious but was meant to shine a light on what women are advised to do in these situations, it was to stimulate discussion. To move away from this particular case the discussion needs to be about how we make women feel safer in general which is clearly a big issue.

And again the point is missed; the advice was intended as a short term solution to the immediate problem, not a long term one. Now that the believed source of the problem has been removed, the advice is no longer valid.

It has stimulated discussion about the unfairness of the advice, not the solution to the problem. What is Baroness Jones doing to stimulate discussion to address the ACTUAL problem?

 

[funkycoldmedina]

And again the point is missed; the advice was intended as a short term solution to the immediate problem, not a long term one. Now that the believed source of the problem has been removed, the advice is no longer valid.

It has stimulated discussion about the unfairness of the advice, not the solution to the problem. What is Baroness Jones doing to stimulate discussion to address the ACTUAL problem?

I'm struggling to understand if you're being obtuse or genuinely don't get it but I'm not sure how else to explain it.

 

[Kellfire]

I have a problem with this number. It was gathered on a stop and ask servey. So your asking a woman a question in which she knows her answer effects potential changes. At work we got asked if we've even been burnt through our fire kit. Almost all of us said yes because the stuff we had was rubbish and was likely to happen at some point.
I don't know one women that has experienced sexual assault. I do know women that would say yes because some blokes elbow brushed across their boob on a night out. I remember one occasion when I popped a bottle of champagne and a little spilt on a woman's top. I instinctively wiped it and realised after I was very close to some boob. Definitely touched some side boob. That doesn't make me a criminal. It's just means I lack situational awareness. For all I know I could be in that 20%
I'm not saying it doesn't happen. 20% is 1 in 5. If that figure is correct then I wouldn't let my daughter out the house

You honestly think you don’t know any women who have been sexually assaulted? Given the fact you seem to be ok with the fact you stroked the ancillary part of a woman’s breast without consent, I’d suggest saying that people wouldn’t feel comfortable telling you they’d been assaulted would be a more accurate representation of some of the women you know.

 

[AmandaJR]

The vigil was always going to happen - even when it was called off by the organisers. They knew that, the police knew that and I can't help but think the latter handled it very badly indeed.

It seems the police were in a no win situation but I believe there were options to hold the vigil, with permission, in a more organised fashion with an attempt at social distancing etc but that was rejected. To then do anything but just monitor the situation and hold back from confrontation would surely have been the wisest course of action. If provoked then deal with that individual (s) if really necessary but with every effort to avoid a physical confrontation. Those using it as a platform for other agendas (what the hell is ACAB about, never heard of it before - beggars belief) should have been marched away and I would hope those there for genuine reasons as a vigil would have been delighted to see the back of the scum.

 

[Kellfire]

The vigil was always going to happen - even when it was called off by the organisers. They knew that, the police knew that and I can't help but think the latter handled it very badly indeed.

It seems the police were in a no win situation but I believe there were options to hold the vigil, with permission, in a more organised fashion with an attempt at social distancing etc but that was rejected. To then do anything but just monitor the situation and hold back from confrontation would surely have been the wisest course of action. If provoked then deal with that individual (s) if really necessary but with every effort to avoid a physical confrontation. Those using it as a platform for other agendas (what the hell is ACAB about, never heard of it before - beggars belief) should have been marched away and I would hope those there for genuine reasons as a vigil would have been delighted to see the back of the scum.

ACAB uses a controversial name to get attention but it means different things to different people. For me it’s about a lack of trust in the aims of the police and a belief that the police will stick together and protect their own even during times of wrong doing. There’s also an element of mistrust in why someone would want to be in the police in the first place from people who subscribe to ACAB.

FYI - I don’t buy into ACAB though I have elements of mistrust based on things I have been told.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

Given the fact you seem to be ok with the fact you stroked the ancillary part of a woman’s breast without consent,

Wow, talk about taking something out of context and twisting it ?‍
When I was about 14 I was standing on a crowded train when it suddenly braked. I instinctively put my hands out to stop myself falling and they landed squarely on the breasts of the woman facing me. Guess that makes me a criminal too in your eyes?

 

[Kellfire]

Wow, talk about taking something out of context and twisting it ?‍
When I was about 14 I was standing on a crowded train when it suddenly braked. I instinctively put my hands out to stop myself falling and they landed squarely on the breasts of the woman facing me. Guess that makes me a criminal too in your eyes?

Hovis did it intentionally. You did it accidentally. Slight difference.

 

[AmandaJR]

On a positive note. Walked the dogs and the weather pretty decent so decided I'd run later. Sent a message in the village running group and 7 replies within a few minutes. So meeting with Diana later for a safety in numbers trip across the muddy tracks

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

Hovis did it intentionally. You did it accidentally. Slight difference.

Yes, he did it intentionally without any intent to offend. Big difference.

 

[hovis]

You honestly think you don’t know any women who have been sexually assaulted? Given the fact you seem to be ok with the fact you stroked the ancillary part of a woman’s breast without consent, I’d suggest saying that people wouldn’t feel comfortable telling you they’d been assaulted would be a more accurate representation of some of the women you know.

The point I'm trying to make is many people can recall a situation when they could think back and crowbar a situation into something that qualified as sexual assault to fit an agenda. Personally I'd be more willing to accept reported figures of sexual assault rather than stop and ask.
By the definition of sexual assault I myself have been a victim countless times.

 

[Blue in Munich]

I'm struggling to understand if you're being obtuse or genuinely don't get it but I'm not sure how else to explain it.

I'm not being obtuse, I was responding to the point that Baroness Jones was shining a light on, and providing ammunition for, people with a different agenda than the safety issue, that being the issue of inequality. She highlighted the short term advice and did nothing to drive a long term solution.

I agree that there needs to be a discussion; not about how women are made to feel safer, but how they are actually made safer. Making women safer will make them feel safer; making women feel safer may not actually make them safer; it could put them in more danger because they are less mindful of potential dangers, due to this new perception that they are safe.

People's perceptions of issues are not necessarily the same as the issues and Baroness Jones soundbite politics have further muddied the waters for me, not provided a clearer path to the solution. If you think she did the debate a great service that's your choice, but it's not mine.

 

[Kellfire]

Yes, he did it intentionally without any intent to offend. Big difference.

I know it’s not ok to put my hands anywhere on a woman without her consent, let alone an area of her body that is considered sexual, even if it is to help mop up a drink I’ve spilled on her. If you think it is ok then you’re part of the problem these woman are trying to highlight.